On sinking power in Baji

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On sinking power in Baji

Postby Overlord on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:23 pm

This questions are for the Baji lover:

What is sinking power (沈墜勁)?
How do you define it?
How is that expressed?
How do you tell if it's there?
Is it important? It's pro and con?

The reason I asked because of the Baji schools I encountered,
each has it's own flavor and understanding.

What do you think?

Come on Baji people, don't be shy, this thread had been dingling in the air while,
some bystander reader, no writer.
Last edited by Overlord on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Bob on Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:15 am

I don't think I can quite answer those questions but look at the image--baji horse stance, kua slightly turned inward by a slight turning of the knees:

Image


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=tony+yan ... =152&ty=33

In the above image you lower the tip and snap it back up into the intially starting position--9 reps a set for me--its sets the structure and path for sinking jin--I believe

Figures 5-A and 5-B and 5-C--in my experience one of the most important training exercises I have learned--this maps from the initial horsestance taught in our line of baji

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/bajipigua2.htm

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/bajipigua2.htm

Also, look in this article--it may be of help indirectly

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/fajing.html
Last edited by Bob on Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Bob on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:48 am

Another point--xu jin and fa jin--sinking jin helps compress the body for storing and release. Notice that most baji is lateral movement. After training xiao baji in a horse stance, other forms are half horse/half bow. Also note that the lateral punches with a da qiang start with training in a horse to bow to horse. Later it is punched out of a half horse half bow but the rotation is done with a rear foot.

In all honesty, I often wonder how useful it is to take a part the baji system and look for the bottom-line. I think there is a synergistic outcome in using a wide variety of its jiben gong along with it various training exercises. However, this is just my opinion.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Overlord on Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:46 am



So Bob, is this what you are talking about?
Cheers.

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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Bob on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:28 am

Kinda at the .45 mark or so but it would not be the way I train, nor my teacher. First, he moving around in that horse stance and therefore lacking any structure. Doing that defeats the purpose of the posture and structure you are shaping. In the posture the way my teacher does it, it is almost meditative in that the breathing is co-ordinated, the snap is fast but you don't extend the arms until the tip stops shaking and the extension is co-ordinated with the breath. There are also ways raising the heals almost like a stop but you never move out of the position. Heng Haa breathing can be incorporated. I have found that after practicing the dou qiang exercise, my postures have substantially improved--simply standing in a horse stance was never enough to drive me to a better level. Also you don't want to get trapped into believing this is the only exercise. Almost all of the open hand postures of xiao baji and da baji can be mapped into the da qiang training. It really is s systematic way to train but always keep in mind that this was the way that Liu Yun Qiao taught my teacher and there may be many other ways to do with as much legitimacy as what I have stated.

Take care,

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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Overlord on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:21 pm

Thanks for the info Bob, is great to have baji experts input here.

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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:44 pm

I met Kurt Wong (Liu Yunqiao lineage) some time ago and he was giving me some pointers on how to 'fa' .

Text from Liu's style:
(一)沈墜勁闡釋
關於「沈墜勁」的解說,除了台灣八極拳大師劉雲樵先生在《八極拳》一
書中的解釋為:「所謂『沈墜勁』,不只是下盤的鍛鍊而已,而是使身體的各個部
位,在運勁時能垂直下沈且很穩定。 」。 在大陸的各派八極拳中鮮少聽到對「沈
墜勁」的介紹及解說,以致於對「沈墜勁」到底要如何施展? 如何運用? 其效果
又是如何? 都無法明確的知悉。 筆者依據多年習武與實戰的心得斗膽提出對沈墜
勁的看法,雖為野人獻曝但希望能拋磚引玉,祈請武術界的大德能予以海涵指教。

圖一劉氏八極拳沈墜勁示意圖
在「格鬥八極拳」的拳法理論中,「沈墜勁」是練習「十字勁」的初級基礎。
「格鬥八極拳」的內勁培養程序依次為,「沈墜勁、十字勁、爆炸勁(而非纏絲
勁)」,亦即先培養單向垂直的「沈墜勁」,再衍生為垂直與水平交會的「十字勁」,
等到熟悉垂直、水平的勁道後要練習全方位的「爆炸勁」。 終極目的在培養身體
能發出如炸彈往四面八方爆裂一般的「爆炸勁」。 目前本文針對馬步的動作要領
加以分析並實驗,來表達本門對「沈墜勁」的看法。 本門「沈墜勁」要求能達到 「沈而不滯、快而不浮、既沈且浮」的境界,也就是說在對敵攻擊時移動快速且勁道威猛,而重心也是非常沈穩的,相信這也是所有熱愛八極拳的人所共同追求
的目標。 至於「十字勁」、「爆炸勁」日後再專文論述。


My understanding (as Bajiquan is similar to our Lion Shape in Baguazhang) is that when one 'fa' (issues explosive force) it's omnidirectional and you need to 'harmonize the landing of the foot with the strike' and also 'Chen' (sink down the weight) so that the strike is more powerful and get the reverberations bouncing back from the ground. It's also key to finding 'chan si jin' in your own body.

At first you need to fully develop 'Chen' to develop your body's full potential for power; Like a tiger walking down the mountain to hunt is using 'Chen' and is a symbol of 'Yang'. Qian Trigram.

Only later, after you've developed 'Chen' would you work on 'Teng' (rising); Like a tiger bounding up the mountain is a symbol of 'Yin' as it's already killed and just wants to get back to it's cave and sleep. Kun Trigram.

The advice I got from Kurt was basically that in my attempts to generate more power when 'issuing' (fali) instead of trying to bring it up and out, that it's counter-intuitive, but one needs to actually sink in and down to generate a greater force. That's why they have beginners 'stomp' the foot to develop it.


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Overlord on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:20 am

D_Glenn wrote:I met Kurt Wong (Liu Yunqiao lineage) some time ago and he was giving me some pointers on how to 'fa' .

Text from Liu's style:
(一)沈墜勁闡釋
關於「沈墜勁」的解說,除了台灣八極拳大師劉雲樵先生在《八極拳》一
書中的解釋為:「所謂『沈墜勁』,不只是下盤的鍛鍊而已,而是使身體的各個部
位,在運勁時能垂直下沈且很穩定。 」。 在大陸的各派八極拳中鮮少聽到對「沈
墜勁」的介紹及解說,以致於對「沈墜勁」到底要如何施展? 如何運用? 其效果
又是如何? 都無法明確的知悉。 筆者依據多年習武與實戰的心得斗膽提出對沈墜
勁的看法,雖為野人獻曝但希望能拋磚引玉,祈請武術界的大德能予以海涵指教。

圖一劉氏八極拳沈墜勁示意圖
在「格鬥八極拳」的拳法理論中,「沈墜勁」是練習「十字勁」的初級基礎。
「格鬥八極拳」的內勁培養程序依次為,「沈墜勁、十字勁、爆炸勁(而非纏絲
勁)」,亦即先培養單向垂直的「沈墜勁」,再衍生為垂直與水平交會的「十字勁」,
等到熟悉垂直、水平的勁道後要練習全方位的「爆炸勁」。 終極目的在培養身體
能發出如炸彈往四面八方爆裂一般的「爆炸勁」。 目前本文針對馬步的動作要領
加以分析並實驗,來表達本門對「沈墜勁」的看法。 本門「沈墜勁」要求能達到 「沈而不滯、快而不浮、既沈且浮」的境界,也就是說在對敵攻擊時移動快速且勁道威猛,而重心也是非常沈穩的,相信這也是所有熱愛八極拳的人所共同追求
的目標。 至於「十字勁」、「爆炸勁」日後再專文論述。


My understanding (as Bajiquan is similar to our Lion Shape in Baguazhang) is that when one 'fa' (issues explosive force) it's omnidirectional and you need to 'harmonize the landing of the foot with the strike' and also 'Chen' (sink down the weight) so that the strike is more powerful and get the reverberations bouncing back from the ground. It's also key to finding 'chan si jin' in your own body.

At first you need to fully develop 'Chen' to develop your body's full potential for power; Like a tiger walking down the mountain to hunt is using 'Chen' and is a symbol of 'Yang'. Qian Trigram.

Only later, after you've developed 'Chen' would you work on 'Teng' (rising); Like a tiger bounding up the mountain is a symbol of 'Yin' as it's already killed and just wants to get back to it's cave and sleep. Kun Trigram.

The advice I got from Kurt was basically that in my attempts to generate more power when 'issuing' (fali) instead of trying to bring it up and out, that it's counter-intuitive, but one needs to actually sink in and down to generate a greater force. That's why they have beginners 'stomp' the foot to develop it.


.



Ha ha...thanks Glen! Yes the Chinese passage is from Master Zheng in Taiwan.
This is his original article. http://baji.sg1001.myweb.hinet.net/ebook/E01.pdf

It has diagram and detail explanation in Chinese, wish someone can translate it.

I have great respect of Master Kurt Wong, he really gives a detail insight on a lot of pointers, thanks for sharing.

Back to the sinking power, where is the sinking power focused? The ball of the foot of the heel? Especially when you stomp.

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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Bob on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:33 am

Overlord:

My personal take is that the sinking power is focused in the kua/hip/butt area--as a Chen player once told me in the 80s, think of the area as a basketball dropped into a stretched net and note how the basket ball draws all of the net downward. It is also important that the stance work forms an equilateral "triangle" [ideal--especially when you have youth on your side. LOL--later it is a half horse half bow and you can more clearly see the arch it forms. These clips might help illustrate the area I am speaking of [slow and fast versions--note that neither of these gentlemen are under 40 in the clips]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7o-C8PvVoU&feature=plcp




Last edited by Bob on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Overlord on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:18 am

Thanks Bob!

According to my observation, both Ma and Huo families does not have extreme low horse stance.
Not sure about Wu family. But Wu Tan is the one with very low horse stance.
The question is why?
Much appreciated!
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Bob on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:47 am

Overlord:

Kinda a synchronicity--this weekend, in our disciple's class [fancy word for those of us who have been around for a long time LOL] we went over xiao baji jia and the 2nd level of liu da kai. The way we train is that we only use a horse stance in the xiao baji jia training--everything else is a half horse/half bow. Second it is really hard to understand one jin in isolation of the others since every move contains the 3 basic jins: sinking, crossing and chan si jin. Baji power is shaped and stored in a rather unique way with an emphasis on xu jin --> fa jin. We wrote about that in one of the articles.

What our teacher made clear is that liu da kai is really application oriented--in using it as a fighting application one would never go into a low posture nor would one stomp. You would lose speed--it also explains why it is futile to learn liu da kai without having acquired the shen fa and power from all of the previous training. All the trained jins are assumed to be accessible when in the higher levels of application and stance--its hard to explain but baji is close range, compact--when you are inside, for example, a simultaneously forward, downward, twisting strike with elbow to the heart region is devastatingly painful and effective. Also critical to the close range fighting the developed ability of kao for opening the person up--trained properly, slight turns and sinkings of the body can produce deep effects on the body of selected areas of the opponent--all this presupposes that the body skills of the previous intense training is in place and ready to go

Many are called to baji and call baji in name but the training is intense, as it is for most traditional arts, and to persevere is probably the most difficult trait to acquire.

I now understand why my teacher, in the old days, had everyone learn praying mantis before any baji was touched. It is not that one is superior to the other but the kicking and punching first learned in praying mantis is more quickly accessible for "impatient" fighting oriented young students--especially when at the end of the year they are eyeing their karate, taekwondo brethern and wondering: "Did I get my biggest bang for my buck studying Chinese martial arts or should have gone elsewhere?"

In my experience, few students stay beyond 3 years and that doesn't pay the bills if teaching martial arts as a full-time job.

1 year in baji doesn't scratch the surface and 3 years is just a beginiing assuming one has access to comprehensive instruction.
Last edited by Bob on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby Overlord on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:30 pm

Thanks Bob.
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Re: On sinking power in Baji

Postby kreese on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:28 am

As others have said, sinking stores potential energy in the elastic tendons/ligaments of the hips and torso and leg, like rubber bands, and the trick is to transfer that into a horizontal impulse with minimal energy lost in the transference, preferably a smooth amplification of releasing said potential energy into the desired weapon e.g. seven stars.

That amplification is the cool shit, and the better you get, the less you have to show overtly with a loose shirt on, therefore not telegraphic or giving away the source of your power vs a more obvious hip snap or other tell...this is basic fighting stuff and every aspect of the development should also increase your ability to continuously hone your power, from raw iron to steel to a finely layered samurai sword, the neigong is the forge, stance training is the traditional frame building much like a builder progressively designs and builds a strong structure.

So the stance training is also training the sequence of movements involved in the storing and releasing of energy, because our dantian/hip area is kind of suspended from above and below by somewhat springy or highly articulated anatomy with strong connections to the rest of the body, it is the anchor point for major sinews, which is my general term for the collageonous (?) tissues that are extremely strong, elastic, and somewhat contractile and/or possibly involved in more subtle physiological processes which are the mystery of nei gong...

But the image of a bow being drawn and released is a great mental image for the deliverate storing and lightning quick release that an arrow characterizes.
Last edited by kreese on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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