Relationship between IP and Chi

[GrahamB]

Ok then, let's give this new forum a go!

My understanding of Chi is exactly as follows:

"In its most literal definition Chi means 'air' but it also means 'the special or specially good rice you save to give visitors'. The combination of these two definitions gives us the concept of something intrinsically good within air. The term Chi in the martial arts is used to refer to the energy intrinsic to the breath. In classical Chinese thinking this raw Chi is stored in the Tan Tien (a point mid way between the navel and the pubic bone) and can be transformed by special breathing exercises to make Jin (Jing, Gin) which is a refined form of Chi energy that can be used to protect the body in combat, allow more powerful strikes with less effort and promote good health."

The cultivation of this Jin can be done in many exercises, but the most potent is probably Standing (Zhan Zhaung) which does not involve external movement or applying power to another person.i.e. there are no 'body mechanics' or 'shen fa' involved in its production.

So my question to people who practice IP is - what role does chi play in IP for you? Is chi necessary for IP, or is it body mechanics (what people call 'shen fa') alone? Can Jin or Chi exist without movement? Without body mechanics or shen fa?

How does it all fit together for you?

(My own understanding from experience is that jin can be produced in the body without movement, but you can use it in combination with correct alignment and relaxed movement and intention - yi - to produce internal power - or IP, but I don't claim to know the whole picture or be an expert, and keep an open mind).

p.s. I totally expect somebody to say 'that's not the definition of chi' - that's ok - please give yours.

[Ralteria]

Just to get it out of the way: as far as definition goes I generally think of Chi as any intrinsic energy of a "thing". Saves me time in most of the debate and allows a quick and loose definition. Thanks for sharing yours, Graham. in regards to your definition, I think air/breath is so often used with Qi as breathing is the one autonomic body function that we have a certain amount of control over and it effects the whole body. So in a sense, breathing is the first and last thing involved with regulating the energy going on in the body.

what role does chi play in IP for you?

An intermediary relationship, functioning between the mind and the body. If the mind is the general in an army, and the muscles, bones, ligaments, etc. are the soldiers, then Chi is the intangible orders given by the general to be carried out.

Is chi necessary for IP, or is it body mechanics (what people call 'shen fa') alone?

Both. Proper mechanics help chi flow. Good chi flow enables better mechanics. They can't exist without each other.

Can Jin or Chi exist without movement? Without body mechanics or shen fa?

Two parts to the question. Can jin or chi exist without movement? Yes. Jin can be seen (or experienced) in ZZ, though really it's splitting hairs as even when not moving your still "moving" so to speak. Chi exists without body movement in general, and to a certain extent, much of ZZ is moving intrinsic energy without moving.

Can Chi exist without body mechanics/shen fa? Absolutely. Can Jin exist without body mechanics? No. It's both energy and body mechanics working together that create jin. I know there are all sorts of POVs as far as to whether is jin, li, qi-li, etc. but I'm of the view that jin is both intrinisic energy and the body working together in harmony. That doesn't mean that the body has to be moving. It can be held in a preferable position and it would still be body mechanics. If they aren't in harmony, then normal power is produced(which can still be refined to a razor sharp level). But what i would refer to as normal power requires gross movement.

How does it all fit together for you?

It's essentially about harmonizing the body with the mind. Chi is the tool used. "Used" is a bad term though, as I don't ever "direct/focus/whatever my chi" at all. I direct my mind. Chi just follows.

Humbly presented for immediate dismissal

Rams

[lazyboxer]

Qì 氣 is 'phlogiston', the missing 5th element. We must breathe to remove phlogiston from our bodies, or risk bursting into flames.

[Tom]

I've always liked this passage from the baguazhang training notes that Andrea Falk put together based on the teaching of Li Baohua. It describes the importance of changing the body through training, and allowing the "qi/blood" to fully circulate to strengthen the tendons and bones. This cultivation and changing of the body is fundamental and is directly analogous to the "bodywork" from which Dan Harden adopted his nom-de-forum. In recent years I've come to appreciate the importance of this kind of in-depth solo training to cultivate the martial body--which also provides the health benefits ascribed to internal martial arts.

All methods and techniques work on at least the two levels of applications and health. If you have a problem in the body, it shows up when you do a technique badly. So by getting the technique perfect you can correct the problem in the body. In this style we believe that the methods are not difficult, we just have problems doing them because of problems in the body. So whatever method we do, we do it naturally, and wait for the body to change to be able to do it. This is one reason why we use big movements. In this way you use martial techniques to develop health, and use health to improve martial techniques.

Never forget when doing the moves that they are based on holding the qi and blood. Full qi/blood allows the tendons to change, which enable the moves to become strong and perfect. Do not train hard to get the moves strong without this support of feeling full qi/blood. In order to let the qi/blood become full we try to collect the body by relaxing, emptying the chest and settling into the legs, always keeping centered. When you can hold the qi/blood stable when moving then you can easily change the tendons and bones. The benefit of this type of training is that it changes the weakest tendons first, and the body builds up gradually. Many sports and other activities only change the specific tendons that are stressed, often the strongest tendons, and the body, since it operates as a unit, is only as strong as its weakest tendons. Training the tendons and bones without the support of the qi/blood will give you temporary results and could hurt you.

http://maguibagua.net/fundamental_skills/

[AllanF]

Qì 米 is 'phlogiston', the missing 5th element. We must breathe to remove phlogiston from our bodies, or risk bursting into flames.

I don't understand 米 is "mi" which means either "rice" or a surname!
"qi" is 气！

In terms of Qi and IP i have never concerned myself with it and my teachers have also told me not to concern myself with it. Why? Because intent is king! If your intent is strong and at the same time relaxed then the body will be full and the Qi will circulate naturally, eg. when standing in zhan zhuang if your intention is good in the 6 directions then your body will feel full and expanding, your arms will even feel light. These feeling are not important and one shouldn't be dewlt on, only the intention is the most important thing.

[bartekb]

Graham probably means traditional:
气 (氣)
where does you definition come from, Graham?

[Ralteria]

Why? Because intent is king! If your intent is strong and at the same time relaxed then the body will be full and the Qi will circulate naturally, eg. when standing in zhan zhuang if your intention is good in the 6 directions then your body will feel full and expanding, your arms will even feel light. These feeling are not important and one shouldn't be dewlt on, only the intention is the most important thing.

+1

[GrahamB]

Graham probably means traditional:
气 (氣)
where does you definition come from, Graham?

It's written by Sifu Rand on the Yongquan website (soon to be updated).

[middleway]

My opinion/experience of chi and what it was has changed a fair amount over the years.

When I first got interested in internal arts through daito ryu, I was always searching for this magic power as I trained kokyuho etc sort of ignoring the physical points as they always came very easily to me. Then later I rejected the idea completely in my practice, ignoring all sensations and entirely focusing on mechanics. Now I feel my practice is one of observation.

From my perspective Chi is everywhere all the time, not just at lower dan tien, or any of the other dan tiens and practice is a way to increase the potency and your ability to hold onto this energy ... The 2 man training and the solo training enable me to observe my energy state and how I retain or loose energy. Then I can train specifically to hold onto it or change the way my previous practice is effecting my level of energy.

As for what it actually is. For me I literally never use the term when training or teaching. I don't think it's useful for students and just confuses them.

IME so far chi means, the energy built,moved, received or projected in a specific interaction and Jin means the type or direction of that energetic iteraction. I now feel it is fairly easy to feel or see in the body what the energy state is and then exercise appropriately to adjust it.

So that's a long way of getting to the point I guess! Haha. I think IP training has a direct intertwined relationship with chi. They are part of the same system and are trained at the same time through the main motivator of IP training... The intent.

Cheers
Chris

[lazyboxer]

Qì 米 is 'phlogiston', the missing 5th element. We must breathe to remove phlogiston from our bodies, or risk bursting into flames.

I don't understand 米 is "mi" which means either "rice" or a surname!
"qi" is 气！

In terms of Qi and IP i have never concerned myself with it and my teachers have also told me not to concern myself with it. Why? Because intent is king! If your intent is strong and at the same time relaxed then the body will be full and the Qi will circulate naturally, eg. when standing in zhan zhuang if your intention is good in the 6 directions then your body will feel full and expanding, your arms will even feel light. These feeling are not important and one shouldn't be dewlt on, only the intention is the most important thing.

DOH!!! I meant to say 氣, but my palsied keyboard finger slipped and I put the 'mi' component instead. I'd been trying to unpack the traditional character by way of elucidation and decided midway to return to the Land of the Mugwumps.

气 is the simplified pinyin version and only half the story. As well as meaning 'air' etc. in modern Chinese, it's also the radical of the traditional 氣, which by adding 米 carries the additional meaning of nutrition and germination. Yet another layer of meaning lost to Communism and modernisation, if not to popular consciousness. Other Chinese populations retain the original character, though that may also change in time.

Graham's original point about the rice you give to your visitors, though seemingly obscure, is simply due to 米 usually being taken to mean hulled rice. In our strange culture, we have to pay a premium price for brown/organic/natural/'macrobiotic' rice, which the Chinese see as fit only for pigs and peasants.

[Daniel]

Edited for brevity.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[GrahamB]

Lazyboxer, I will have to pass on the linguistics - not my area of specialty

Related to thus discussian another phrase I've heard my teacher use (to describe internal arts, or doing things in an internal way) is:

"There is only yi and there is only structure."

This is a bastardisation of a line in the Xingyi classics:

"There is only chi and there is only structure"

I believe the point of his change is to emphasise that for usage you don't need to think about chi - you just put your intent where it needs to go and it goes there. (separate chi king exercises perhaps could determine how much goes there, but without the intent it doesn't matter, since it would never leave your body)

So to return to my original question, perhaps chi development or 'cultivation' is not necessary for IP, but is related and at the very least not detrimental?
Thanks for the discussion guys - it is refreshingly on topic and I'm learning lots! Perhaps this forum is a good idea after all...

[middleway]

So to return to my original question, perhaps chi development or 'cultivation' is not necessary for IP, but is related and at the very least not detrimental?

Yes I would say so. I think that the two are so intertwined that the development and cultivation are essentially unavoidable if the practice is correct.

As Dan said, Yi, Qi, Li. But over time i have thought that maybe this system of definition introduces the idea of these three explanations being ultimately separate things.

The difficulty with the separation of the system here for me is that it only exists in the mind of the people trying to figure out things. In reality they are all a single system, deeply and completely intertwined with each other with a change in one having direct consequence on the others.

With that in mind, IMO correct practice should not be the separation of Yi, Chi, Li but the understanding of the whole system and its combined nature or state. I believe this is where some of the higher guys are. They are not training Nei dan, Li gong etc ... The entire unit/system is trained simultaneously.

The difficulty here is that this is impossible if any of those three aspects of the whole system are not 'trained' or 'skilled'. Which i guess is why the separation of these concepts happened in the first place.

... also are we forgetting Shen in this model? My understanding is that the system is ; Shen, Yi, Qi, Li. How does this fit in?

Just to agree further with all ... good start to the Distillery!

Regards

[Daniel]

Edited for brevity.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Wanderingdragon]

There is a Taoist saying " excessive yang leads to yin, excessive yin leads to death " I think here you have the essence of chi in ip training, without chi no structure stands erect, yet to much chi can deprive the actual structure of it's intrinsic, strength, ip training seeks to recognize and balance such an energy.