The Mechanics of IP

[middleway]

Thought i would try to kick off a discussion on the physical mechanics of IP and IP development.

What body mechanics define Internal Strength in your personal Opinion?

What Physical structures are trained?

What is the reaction of those structures to input/output of force (application)?

I look forward to hearing some detail on this.

thanks in advance

Chris

[middleway]

No One?

Would be very interested in hearing from Bodywork and Interloper specifically on their understanding of these questions.

thanks in advance.

Chris

[Sprint]

These are not straight forward questions, or rather they're a bit vague, if you'll allow me. What body mechanics...? The second question is easy to answer - it's nerves and muscles - but that doesn't help you at all. The third question's answer I don't think will help much either.

If you say: What is Internal Power? That's not easy to answer either, because it's not just one thing. It's lots of interconnected things, that together add up to an integrated whole. I had a stab at the basics in IP 101 thread.

Tomorrow I'm free and I'm going to have a pop at producing something coherent, but I'll do it in the main forum - if there's any interest that is. My approach is to try to explain to whoever is willing to listen, but also to let them ask questions, since this forum does not allow just anyone to question what's being said.

I'm not sure that Dan is bothered much about explanations of fundamental concepts, so much as he is interested in talking to people who have a similar level of knowledge and skill to his own. And why not? Me, I like to think I can help people achieve enough knowledge to provide longer term goals for their practice. I view IP or skilled force as essential to all MA and hope that I can contribute to people's understanding to improve their practice.

[middleway]

These are not straight forward questions, or rather they're a bit vague, if you'll allow me.

Sorry about that but it is sort of deliberate. The topic of IP or IS seems to mean different things to different people so i didnt want to be specific. I wanted to get people posting their understanding to produce some conversation leading to some interesting tidbits.

What body mechanics...?/

The body mechanics trained and developed by internal practice.

The second question is easy to answer - it's nerves and muscles - but that doesn't help you at all.

Agreed, i am not looking for help from a Forum. i am looking for conversation.

What Muscles? What differentiates the use of these muscles from their use in normal athletic practice? What makes how you use them produce substantially different results.

The third question's answer I don't think will help much either.

again i'm interested in starting discussion ... not getting help. Help comes from training hard in the correct way not from reading a forum. Interesting discussion comes from reading a forum IMO. If that enlightens something i already train then happy days.

Tomorrow I'm free and I'm going to have a pop at producing something coherent, but I'll do it in the main forum - if there's any interest that is. My approach is to try to explain to whoever is willing to listen, but also to let them ask questions, since this forum does not allow just anyone to question what's being said.

I look forward to it.

I'm not sure that Dan is bothered much about explanations of fundamental concepts, so much as he is interested in talking to people who have a similar level of knowledge and skill to his own. And why not?

Thats unfortunate. i look forward to meeting him. However to explain a fundamental concept for the first time here so everyone knows where your coming from, not in terms of 'what its like' but 'what it IS' would be useful for everyone i think and thats why I posed the questions.

Me, I like to think I can help people achieve enough knowledge to provide longer term goals for their practice. I view IP or skilled force as essential to all MA and hope that I can contribute to people's understanding to improve their practice.

A kind stance. I look forward to reading your upcoming post.

many thanks
Chris

[D_Glenn]

"What body mechanics define Internal Strength in your personal Opinion?"

Posted on Fri May 23, 2008

A spin on an old question - how do you, the reader, create internal strength? How do you train it?

The good first step for us would be to stop using incomplete, inaccurate translations like internal strength. The Chinese word used here is jin, which means trained force. So the correct translation is internal trained force. As the name suggests, it's not the kind of force you can produce or do very well naturally without special training. People can naturally have a lot of strength, but no one naturally has a lot of jin.

Martial art is fundamentally about how to use force (to cause incapacitation, injury, or death). We make use of many types of trained forces (in Taiji Quan we talk about 36 types, actually there are more), each has its advantages and disadvantages. For example, with external jins, the advantage is you can produce the biggest, fastest accelerating forces this way, but the disadvantage is once it's launched, it's very hard to stop and change course midway (it's ballistic), also, store and release are separate, distinct processes. With internal jin, just the opposite it true.

The quantitative aspects - speed, acceleration, duration, etc, are but part of the whole picture. Using a bigger force is not always the solution. Hence the objection to the word strength here, not only is it incorrect, it gives the false impression that with internal jin, "bigger is automatically better". It's not. With internal jin we're seeking a different type of quality.

Classic examples of activities involving a lot of jin are pool and golf: sometimes you need to use big external force to hit the ball very hard, sometimes you need to use very refined internal force to control the ball. As martial art students we want to have as complete an understanding on use of force (in all its aspects) as possible.

Here's a good intro on jin: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html


Wuyizidi

.

[kreese]

Is it really possible to talk about body mechanics? You can only go by your subjective feelings, which do have effects outside of your imagination, but the subject of body mechanics will always be plagued by the fact that basically no one is trained to actually talk about it, including me, and I apparently have a degree in Kinesiology.

Not trying to poop on the thread idea, Chris, but in a way it might exclude all the 'fuzzy' (vs 'techy') stuff that is involved when doing things like meditation, qigong, listening, etc.

But perhaps if we can create some sort of jargon that most of us can agree on, that'd be the place to start, before we all start arguing over what is more likely to be a difference in the way we express things in words.

[Daniel]

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[middleway]

Hi Kreese,

Is it really possible to talk about body mechanics? You can only go by your subjective feelings, which do have effects outside of your imagination, but the subject of body mechanics will always be plagued by the fact that basically no one is trained to actually talk about it, including me, and I apparently have a degree in Kinesiology.

I am not sure that it is. I agree with you that it doesn't seem anyone here is qualified to really get into the nitty grippy of what specific structural mechanics are in use in IMA's.

Not trying to poop on the thread idea, Chris, but in a way it might exclude all the 'fuzzy' (vs 'techy') stuff that is involved when doing things like meditation, qigong, listening, etc.

The problem is that when we talk in general terms from our viewpoint, position, tradition or understanding we come up against the problem of constant 'that's not IP/IS' comments. What i tried to do with this thread is get people to talk about how THEY believe IP/IS works physically. Seems i failed

Rather than people viewing these questions as general (which they HAVE to be due to vast differences between practitioners on this board in defining IP) to kick off a discussion into more specific areas, they seem to have been viewed as questions I 'need answering' on the subject. I didnt really think that was the point of the distillery. I will try to be more specific in the future about things i am personally working on and not try to kick off general discussions.

But perhaps if we can create some sort of jargon that most of us can agree on, that'd be the place to start, before we all start arguing over what is more likely to be a difference in the way we express things in words.

[/quote]

I think that was the aim of this thread really. To see where everyone was coming from and then have an idea on how the conversation in this section can develop.

If we talk about Chi everyone says BTDT, If we say directly 'What is IP' Ditto. It figured if we went slightly more specific than that but still very general we could start to build an idea of each others viewpoints.

regards.

Chris

[Sprint]

OK to continue the conversation I think that using IP or IS suggests some hidden, non obvious method or means to gain advantage in a MA context. It does n't help that it provides no real clue to what is being discussed and I agree with D_Glen and Wuyizidi that skilled or trained force provides a far better insight as to what is involved. Namely you train it specifically.

Body mechanics while being a broad term has the advantage that it suggests a physical process. It was n't that long ago that the conversation was purely about qi and how to circulate it.

So skilled force arises from specific physical training.

The only way a human being can develop any force is by using muscles. Muscles act on bone effecting movement and force via tendons that attach the muscle to bone. I'm spelling this out because what skilled force is about is training muscles not tendons.

Action
Muscles come in pairs agonist and antagonist to move left and right, up and down, forward and backward. And any number of variations of those three planes as the joints allow. When one of the pair is engaged the other is relaxed.

Recruitment
If I want to lift an object off my desk I can do so by using the muscle that flexes my wrist. If it's too heavy I can use my bicep to bend my elbow as well. If it's still too heavy I can employ my shoulder too....then my upper back.....then my lower back and hips...and finally stand up and use my legs to lift, in addition to all of the above. Similarly if I was to push an object on my desk I could go through the same process until I'm pushing with my legs. In other words there's a link that runs from hand to foot and vice versa.

Application
If I want to add some speed into the equation ideally I want all the lifting, or all the pushing, muscles primed and ready to go at once. This is what sprinters in the blocks do. By priming the muscles I also automatically relax their antagonists so energy transfer is not hindered – there's no drag.

A muscle that is primed or that has a very slight load on it will fire faster than one which is relaxed. Its antagonist will be relaxed. And there is a link that connects hand to foot.

Knowing this we can use certain exercises to develop and make use of these phenomena, to achieve more physical power; more speed, faster reactions, more explosiveness, better body control and more efficient movement.

I'm simplifying here, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.

So the exercises that allow skilled force to be developed engage muscles from head to foot at the same time. I've already said in IP 101 that this involves conscious input (Yi) that then becomes proprioceptive via the muscle (li) ie you start by thinking or imagining and end by feeling.

[middleway]

Thanks for the explanation Sprint Although it differs somewhat from my thoughts on the mechanics its interesting to hear. I will try and find time to post my thoughts in the next few days.

Body mechanics while being a broad term has the advantage that it suggests a physical process. It was n't that long ago that the conversation was purely about qi and how to circulate it.

Totally agree. I think if we start with mechanics we can then move onward to other slightly more ambiguous systems once the mechanical 'framework' is discussed and semi defined.

In the mean time ...

How does Fascia feature in your model of simultaneous Muscle recruitment through conscious input?

Is this Independent of the process your talking about, part of the system or irrelevant to the system?

from wiki:

Fasciae are normally thought of as passive structures that transmit mechanical tension generated by muscular activities or external forces throughout the body. Some research suggest that fasciae might be able to contract independently and thus actively influence muscle dynamics.[6]
The function of muscle fasciae is to reduce friction to minimize the reduction of muscular force. In doing so, fasciae:
1.Provide a sliding and gliding environment for muscles.
2.Suspend organs in their proper place.
3.Transmit movement from muscle to the bones they are attached to.
4.Provide a supportive and movable wrapping for nerves and blood vessels as they pass through and between muscles

A link to a study on the subject:

http://fasciaresearch.de/Schleip2005FascialContractility.pdf

There has been talk of Fascia here a fair bit. I wonder what level of relevance it holds for people in terms of IMA mechanics?

Regards
Chris

[kreese]

I will bite, not just trying to criticize, a lot of my work these days is emotional/mental, maybe because I haven't been doing a lot of traditional type IMA training.

I think the goal for any human being is to transmit force with as little leakage as possible through the kinetic chains. But then you have chains where one end is fixed, and the other end open (yes, my education fails me!). The main example of this is your feet or a foot is on the ground.

You also have chains where both end are open, so to speak, where you don't depend on one end being fixed to generate power. It's not like you suddenly have no power because you are not grounded.

Thus we delve into defining IP, and I have a feeling that there are many such definitions.

And this is just looking at pure movement. When it comes to martial arts, what are our main priorities? Do you need to use 100% of your potential power at all times? I'd wager that is not possible in terms of energy management, as in it's not efficient if stamina (time as a variable) is paramount. Also, max power will take more time, at least for most of us.

Maybe some people have max power with zero loading, but for the rest of us, and for the sake of actually having a practical discussion, again we need to agree on some priorities and go from there, i.e. a shoulder punch is faster, but less powerful, maybe not IP, or maybe it is...and if I am hitting you in your eye, it doesn't matter if I give you 150 lbs of mass or 10 lbs.

Thus going back to the classics, to find the inherent strategies and tactics that stem from a certain body method/movement philosophy, e.g. no force on force, or balanced like a scale, may yield some clues as to what we should strive for, a concrete goal, vs. the potential for an infinite variety of wanky, stylized movements that exhibit perfect shen fa.

Convergence, as opposed to divergence. One's Yi cannot be focused if you do not have a clear image in mind, and then the Qi and Li and your buttocks can make the shape, or xing.

I kid, but I hope you see that I am serious.

[Chris McKinley]

I agree with you that it doesn't seem anyone here is qualified to really get into the nitty grippy of what specific structural mechanics are in use in IMA's.

I'll be your huckleberry.

[Bhassler]

Hey Chris,

Got anything on the mechanics of suspending the crown, since obviously there's nothing above the head physiologically to hold it up? I can create a subjective feeling of length without any noticeable change in tonus of the neck muscles, and I can objectively stabilize the head in space while lowering my pelvis to create a stretch in the spine, and I can use the crown and/or occiput as a sort of fulcrum for power generation in the sense of anchoring one end of the spinal bow, but I'm not too clear on what provides the stability. Multifidae and whatever's proximal to the occiput, maybe?

T'anks!
B-

[Sprint]

In the mean time ...

How does Fascia feature in your model of simultaneous Muscle recruitment through conscious input?
Is this Independent of the process your talking about, part of the system or irrelevant to the system?
There has been talk of Fascia here a fair bit. I wonder what level of relevance it holds for people in terms of IMA mechanics?

Regards
Chris

I'll start by saying that I'm not at all familiar with much of the fascia discussion. There is, in MA circles, this notion that the fascia are in some way integral to skilled force development. Mike Sigman talks of a “fascia suit” in which the whole body is enveloped by fascia that somehow relates to internal power. Muscles of course come under the heading of fascia, as do tendons, ligaments and other stuff too.

To me the critical test of relevance to internal power development/skilled force is: What part of the total summation of fascia can I directly interact with using my conscious mind. My answer is that the only thing I can influence the action of is muscles, by getting them to fire using my imagination. I then can proprioceptively feel that that is what happened, again using my brain.

I don't know how to influence any other kind of fascia directly. Now I think it might be the case that by influencing muscles, I also, as a consequence, manipulate or in some way alter other fascia – but that is not the primary goal of skilled force development.

Having said all that, I read this on the Anatomy Trains website “Anatomy Trains links the individual muscles into functional complexes....” and this is a pretty accurate view of what I'm discussing. The same site also mentions tensegrity, which, if I understand the idea correctly, is what I'm talking about too.

But these are models, in the same way as qi and its circulation is a model, not the thing itself. Tensegrity helps to illuminate how impact force can be dissipated, or how when you receive an incoming force to your structure you can absorb and then repel it. But the further you go down the road of models, however good, the further you get from the thing you are trying to achieve.

So fascia is an interesting discussion, but not wholly relevant.

[Sprint]

Kreese - I've no idea where you're coming from. I don't know if you are asking me stuff or telling me.