Feck Qi. Its not what counts

[kenneth fish]

In my opinion, the discussion of the quest for Qi and/or Internal Strength is a major waste of time. It is, in my view, generally engaged in ad-nauseum by people who have neither and have no real concept or experience of either. This, in my opinion, is because they have not invested the effort and sweat in the fundamental training that comes before learning basics and is prerequisite to skill. From what I have seen, martial arts training in the West and (sadly) much of the open to foreigners training in China these days consists of learning some basic stances and hand movements, then on to drills or forms, followed or accompanied by "applications" training or kickboxing flavored sparring. This is not how real martial arts were traditionally taught. The foundation skills, the things that my teachers spent 2 or 3 years on before being taught forms and such, are for the most part no longer publicly taught. In part this is because teachers are either less fully trained than the generations before them and are themselves ignorant, or because they are teaching what students ask for. In either case, the students and the arts are given short shrift.

My Yongchun and Lohan teachers both told me in great detail what their first couple of years of training were like. My Lohan teacher was fond of pointing out that we, his students, would never reach his level because we were unwilling or unable to devote the time and effort and pain needed to get the foundation skills that he had. At the time I thought he was just using this to goad us - but I now see that he was right.

What do I mean by foundation skills? A vast series of exercises designed to stretch, strengthen, develop balance, agility, and endurance. These included exercises with weights and other equipment, as well as myriad deep stance and mobility exercises, jumping exercises, and what might be considered as basic gymnastic maneuvers. Not until one had this foundation firmly in place could on go on to learning the movements, techniques, and usage of the system - but progress would be relatively fast, as the foundation skills would find expression in the movements and applications of the system. As for Qi and "internal strength"? To some degree the Qi would manifest itself as a result of proper training, and Internal Strength was already being laid down with the foundation work. Trying to work in the other direction is like trying to run water through weak and rusty pipes.

[GrahamB]

Is it just me or does what you're describing sound like MMA conditioning? (mobility exercises, low stances, gymnastic movements, etc...)

I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all.

[kenneth fish]

Its just you. I haven't described the exercises - and they are not at all like MMA exercises. They are far more like a mix of very grueling Chinese Opera, Shuaijiao, and classical Gymnastics exercises - and very much goal oriented and to a degree system specific. (Bear in mind that the training for the martial arts parts of classical Chinese opera was insanely tough - and paralleled martial arts training in general)

[Chris McKinley]

I mostly agree with your assessment if the goal is to attain the fullness of all the skill sets available. I would say that in the last 30 years or so, beginners have stopped doing some of the more rigorous work we used to do foundationally. Even for kids in my time, it was nothing to be asked to do the same 45 minutes+ mabu standing that we did before every single class, followed by some fairly rigorous qigong sets as calisthenics. We also used to do several mile runs fairly frequently, then come back, water up and rest, and then train. By today's standards, it was maniacally brutal, and is probably now completely illegal for minors, with some of the stuff bordering on flat-out abuse.

That said, it certainly laid a foundation that allowed me to study a whole range of things martially over the years and be a very fast learner in making it functional. The body control and endurance I had let me take on all kinds of things I simply could not do today without proper acclimation.

Still, there is definitely a big difference in the mechanics used for internal arts, and as such, it is worth discussing in terms of its role in generating internal power. Like it or not, we must leave it to each of the posters to have already laid the appropriate foundation, or else we will have nothing at all to discuss. Yes, that leaves open the possibility that someone will read some of these posts and think that they have just found themselves a short cut to internal power without having to do the hard work, but that's the risk that must be taken in order to discuss these matters in a public forum.

[kenneth fish]

Also, the point is that with proper foundation (and blood, sweat, and tears) everything else falls into place - without it, everything just falls. A further distinction should be made as well - martial arts qigong, medical qigong, and health qigong are all very different - but they are viewed in the West and by non-martial practitioners of martial arts as being essentially the same. They are not - martial arts qigong is system specific, and is an outgrowth of the system being trained.

[Josealb]

It would be extremely interesting and useful to compile a list of the most basic of these foundation laying exercises, with simple descriptions of them. A general one would be good, but seeing as we all share different backgrounds, a style/goal specific one would be even better.

This seems like a good place to start.

[Wanderingdragon]

I walked for six months when I began, 9 joints was the goal, but I was only to use six until I got that right, so I walked with my hands at my waist until I got that right. My teacher says even this was beyond basic but it was expedited for the western impatient mind. Over the years I continued to pay close attention in every lecture, in order to ask the right question, I watched closely when he demonstrated motion and asked questions on the specifics to coax out anectdotal information, to find clues to the true basic foundational work. Never a part of the class work but necessary work that was acknowledged and appreciated when he recognized we were doing it, leading him to allow us further necessary honesties. This information was never hidden or secret but we only understood it when we did, as it was constantly disseminated through the years with each new student and every older students new understanding. Not quite traditional teaching but definitely classical knowledge, the understanding which was in the effort, some people get it and some leave.

[GrahamB]

Its just you. I haven't described the exercises - and they are not at all like MMA exercises. They are far more like a mix of very grueling Chinese Opera, Shuaijiao, and classical Gymnastics exercises - and very much goal oriented and to a degree system specific. (Bear in mind that the training for the martial arts parts of classical Chinese opera was insanely tough - and paralleled martial arts training in general)

How familiar are you with modern MMA exercises?

I did an MMA warm up the other day that involved standing in a thighs parallel to the ground horse stance for 1 minute then squatting and jumping explosively, and repeat. To be honest, it was pretty damn 'Chinese', for want of a better word. Granted there was no talk of training the Gin or anything like that, but it had its share of blood swet and tears.

[Daniel]

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Patrick]

the system needs to be built up, be strong, stable and have free flow.

Agreed. MMA or Wrestling training builds a different body (but as always it depends on the persons goals). I would like to point to the video channel of mike martello. I think he was inspiration on terms of cma fitness and movement ability.

[kenneth fish]

Graham:

I am currently teaching a group of professional MMA instructors. Not only are the exercises quite different from MMA, they are far more grueling. The group are mostly in their mid to late 20's, have a lot of experience teaching and competing, and are not able to keep up with the old man teaching the class. So to answer your question - very familiar - I have had a lot of interaction with that community. I think Andrew , who posts as NoSword, can also attest to how different from BJJ or MMA the traditional foundation work is.

Daniel:

Yes, I have seen some similar exercises done in the West, but not for a long time (of course, I also saw this type of training in closed door schools in Chinatown some 30 years ago, but that was not open to the public or to non-Chinese). The people who I saw do some of the same work were old-time strong men from Hungary and Russia.

[ilove_thistuff]

Hi Mr. Fish would there be a chance of you making some video of some of the old school traditional exercises that you do...I would really love to see some of them. It might perhaps fill some of the gaps that many of us have in required basics and fundamental practice to building good kung fu. Do you ever come by the SF bay area?

[kenneth fish]

iLTS:

No, I will not be doing any videos for general distribution - see my comment on video learning on the "in search of jibengong"

I am in the Bay area and Lost Angels a few times a year - I will be out there at least twice this year. I enjoy teaching small groups when I am out there.

[NoSword]

I think Andrew , who posts as NoSword, can also attest to how different from BJJ or MMA the traditional foundation work is.

Not sure how much I have to contribute beyond that yes, the traditional jibengong is very different from anything I've seen MMA folks doing (not that my exposure is so broad). Of course, and MMA training is quite a heterogeneous field, so there are people out there doing all kinds of stuff, including some very old-school strongman-type exercises. But if anything, from a biomechanical perspective I'd say the traditional training has more in common with Pilates or ballet training than it does with anything I've seen in combat sports.

I guess what really distinguishes the type of jibengong which Fish and others have shown me from the sort of stuff you see in combat sports, is not how bust-ass it is -- MMA's got that for sure -- but how precise and counterintuitive it is. A lot of these exercises simply could not be learnt from a book or a video, without competent oversight from a knowledgeable teacher. And once that knowledge is gone, it's gone.

AK

[Strange]

a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
只怕熟练的一招。what is feared most is a move well practiced.