Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby lazyboxer on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:25 pm

Thanks, Ken Fish, for reminding us that traditional CMA aren't MMA, with which they have little in common apart from a few superficial resemblances.

For starters, I have yet to meet any such practitioner who can stand up properly on one leg for more than about 15 seconds before the leg starts to fail him. And this is just a basic foundational practice of the training Ken Fish is describing. (If I'm wrong about this please feel free to correct me, Dr. Fish.) I rather suspect that many respected teachers can't either.

Elsewhere on RSF, Wong Yuen-Ming has described the original Yang family taiji basic practices as being utterly exhausting - not because of the amount of training but the way it must be done, very far from the hippy tiechee 'gently as she goes' mentality.

Because the usefulness of this sort of training in modern life has to be questioned, it's unsurprising it holds little appeal to the average student. Any school trying to teach MA commercially along these lines would go bust very soon, methinks.

I wonder how much of the painful rigour of the old-school way of training was to teach mental toughness and determination, and whether there might be a better way of learning the basic skill sets when those mental factors are already established?
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby chud on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:23 pm

Just wanted to say great thread Dr. Fish, and I agree with you.

This, and some other good threads recently such as Jonathan's Apology to Chen Zhonghua thread, where intense form practice is discussed:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15747

and Nicklas' Longfist thread which discusses the benefits of Longfist as a foundational style:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15651

...all illustrate important points about the benefits of Chinese martial arts, when trained properly with strong basics as a foundation.

This is why I would like my sons to train LongFist or something similar as their first style, before they get into IMA (or anything else).

It is too late for me to go back and start out that way, but I do realize that in my own practice I need to devote more time to basics such as standing in SanTi, ZZ, and basic low basin circle walking.

Thanks for bringing your viewpoint to the forum and reminding us about what's important.
Last edited by chud on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:53 pm

It doesn't hurt to share some important secrets:

Low Basin circle walking shouldn't be something that's trained haphazardly. The arms should not be in the normal hand postures. Low basin walking is extremely demanding of the legs, so you don't want to be bringing any unnecessary blood above the heart. The best upper body posture is to hold the arms completely relaxed, with loose fists, in an 'X' shape in front of the chest.

Don't attempt to walk in a circle until after you've practiced it for a long time while walking in a straight line.

Don't attempt to use the normal stepping where you're trying to lift the whole foot flat, and place it down flat. Exaggerate lifting the heel before the toe so you don't damage the achilles tendon.


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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby kenneth fish on Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:37 pm

Lazy Boxer:

Iron Broom is one of the foundation exercises I am referring to - and there are prerequisite exercises before it can be done properly. Once you have the building blocks in place, it becomes a very valuable tool - and a stepping stone to more advanced foundation exercises.

I am not a Taiji adherent, but it is worth noting that if the historiography is in any sense reliable, Yang Luchan was already good in some "long fist" martial art - Hongquan or Liuhe or some such thing. That means he had also gone through the kind of foundation skills necessary to learn those kinds of systems. To try to learn what he taught, or what it evolved into over time, without that foundation, is like trying to sight read a baroque piece without ever having learned the keyboard, much less scales. (I am just using Taiji as an example - this is true of any CMA).
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:41 pm

And to this day I know my most important technique is walking.
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:49 pm

lazyboxer wrote:Because the usefulness of this sort of training in modern life has to be questioned, it's unsurprising it holds little appeal to the average student. Any school trying to teach MA commercially along these lines would go bust very soon, methinks.


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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby kreese on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:45 pm

"External" work builds Qi as well, so treating Qi like it's only cultivated doing what we usually think of in terms of IMA-type training may be a trap that some (myself included) may fall into at some point, often due to some ignorant things written down by some teachers.

So if Qi is not only in the domain of the internal, it makes it less of a leap to think even those seeking the softest-of-the-soft should do some good old fashioned hard work
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby Andy_S on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:13 am

SNIP
I am currently teaching a group of professional MMA instructors. Not only are the exercises quite different from MMA, they are far more grueling. The group are mostly in their mid to late 20's, have a lot of experience teaching and competing, and are not able to keep up with the old man teaching the class.
SNIP

I won't argue with you that basic CMA training is very grueling.

I have undergone infantry basic training, boxing and MT training, run half marathons, etc, etc, but the physically toughest and most painful exercises I ever did were ma bu stance training under my late instructor, Wang Shiang-min, a PM master. The nature of this (extremely simple) foundational exercise is completely unrelenting.

That having been said....

I suspect that if the MMA instructors put Ken - or, indeed, other and more (ahem!) youthful CMA instructors through their routines - Ken and/or the CMA peeps would be unable to keep up with the MMA peeps.

Why?

Because a lot of exercise ability has to do with familiarity: People get good at what they do. The opposite corollary to that, is they will not be good at what they don't do.
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:53 am

Andy_S wrote:I have undergone infantry basic training, boxing and MT training, run half marathons, etc, etc, but the physically toughest and most painful exercises I ever did were ma bu stance training under my late instructor, Wang Shiang-min, a PM master.


I dunno about you, but my infantry training was the worst. 40 Celsius, mid-summer, 4-6 hours of sleep for months on end, running or sprinting all day long with gear on, and eating crappy food all the while. Sometimes I just wanted to collapse and feint on purpose, but I knew my sadistic superiors would make my friends carry me for miles, and couldn't do that to them. Crawling through huge thorny bushes was fun, too. Took me a few months to take all the thorns out. I was lucky. Others got to crawl for hundreds of meters in T-shirts 'till they no longer had any skin left on their elbows or were seriously beat-up just for pissing off the superiors. Physically, worst time of my life. I'm still surprised no one tried to commit suicide, or at least threatened he'd do it. So basically, I was just surprised you saying you had a worse experience :-P


Andy_S wrote:I suspect that if the MMA instructors put Ken - or, indeed, other and more (ahem!) youthful CMA instructors through their routines - Ken and/or the CMA peeps would be unable to keep up with the MMA peeps.

Why?

Because a lot of exercise ability has to do with familiarity: People get good at what they do. The opposite corollary to that, is they will not be good at what they don't do.


Yeah, agreed.
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby lazyboxer on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:01 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:I dunno about you, but my infantry training was the worst. 40 Celsius, mid-summer, 4-6 hours of sleep for months on end, running or sprinting all day long with gear on, and eating crappy food all the while. Sometimes I just wanted to collapse and feint on purpose, but I knew my sadistic superiors would make my friends carry me for miles, and couldn't do that to them. Crawling through huge thorny bushes was fun, too. Took me a few months to take all the thorns out. I was lucky. Others got to crawl for hundreds of meters in T-shirts 'till they no longer had any skin left on their elbows or were seriously beat-up just for pissing off the superiors. Physically, worst time of my life. I'm still surprised no one tried to commit suicide, or at least threatened he'd do it. So basically, I was just surprised you saying you had a worse experience :-P

Josiah: Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.

Obadiah: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home,our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah."

Ezekiel: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby neijia_boxer on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:19 am

Josealb wrote:It would be extremely interesting and useful to compile a list of the most basic of these foundation laying exercises, with simple descriptions of them. A general one would be good, but seeing as we all share different backgrounds, a style/goal specific one would be even better.

This seems like a good place to start.

these seem to have helped me tremendously with my Internal arts training: I had a teacher from Shanghai Jingwu Zhou Jianhua(Chin Woo) and two others, one from Mizung Lohan style (under Alex Kwok/Nick Scrima), another in college from Shaolin (Ching Ching Fang) and a Traditional Yang teacher who was also a famous Wushu teacher (He Weiqi). these basics are common to all of them.

Common Jibegong in Long Fist: Chin Woo, Mizung Lohan, Shaolin Longfist, and even wushu training:

1. Loosen neck, ankles and wrist.
2. Arm/shoulder circles, Waist circles, hip circles, knee circles. (variety of waist turning drills)
3. Heel stretch
4. Squat
5. Various stretches: wall stretches, floor stretches, partner stretches.
a. Single leg
b. Double leg
c. Splits (Chinese and regular)
d. Scales
e. etc.

Stance work stationary:
6. Horse stance (with staff on legs)
7. Bow stance and kneeling stance (knee almost touch ground)
8. Pistols as empty stance warm up
9. Empty stance
10. Drop stance
11. Balance stance
12. Half sitting stance
13. Full sitting stance
Stance work moving
14. Horse stance punching: variety including: horse stance to bow stance, horse stance to half sitting, horse stance to kneeling stance, etc.
15. Bow stance punching
16. Drop stance to bow stance to balance stance drill- low to high leg work.
17. Moving half sitting stance.
18. Combination of stances.
Kicking basics

19. Front stretch kick
20. Inside stretch kick
21. Outside stretch kick
22. Side stretch kick
23. Side kick (low, medium, high)
24. Chinese round kick (low , medium, high)
25. Inside and outside kick combines
26. Slap kick
27. Double slap kick
28. Shovel kick
29. Back kick
30. Low front sweep (180) degree
31. Low back sweep (360) degree
32. Front snap kick (Tan tuei)
33. Combined front snap kick and side kick
34. Circle arm slap kick
35. Front jump kick
36. Tornado kick
37. Lotus kick
38. Butterfly kick
39. Cartwheels and Aerial (cartwheel no hands)

Strength conditioning:
1. Jump and land in Horse stance
2. Wall sits (sit in horse stance back to wall)
3. V-ups
4. Sit ups
5. Push ups
6. Burpies
7. Squat kicks
8. Outside kick, 180 degree inside kick, to bow stance palm strike hold (repeat 20 times)
9. Leg raises (50)
10. Back extensions
11. Bridges (30 sec holds)
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:35 am

Re-posting this here just to make sure I touch all bases.

Re: The search for jibengong

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:18 am
I must say I am pleasantly surprised by the generally good, intelligent responses this thread has gotten, as well as the fact that we got this far before the usual "whatta ya mean my shit is fake" and "oh yeah? you think you're so smart?" and "this is what I do, and since I do it this way it must be what you are talking about" responses started.

This thread and the thread on the distillery are in no way directed towards any individuals - on the contrary, as I said, the intent is to point out a major part of information that is generally not being transmitted at the very beginning. Not only is it not being transmitted, the lack of awareness of its existence means that students do not know what it is that they lack when compared to earlier generations of Chinese martial artists - all they see is that somehow the skills and achievements are different, and they may attempt to address the problem, if they see one, by pulling in training from various disciplines that do not produce the same results.

The only way to get this training is from a teacher who is willing to impart it. This is the material that forms the true core of Chinese martial arts - and is generally closely held. Yuanming, and I think to some extent Andy, have an idea of what I am talking about.

Jonathon: I would like you to humor me if you would. Since your teacher and grandteacher are still around - approach your grandteacher and say something like "I have been doing this for a long time, but I still do not feel I have grasped the foundation and basics of the system - the work that really builds skill. Could you train me from scratch the way the old teachers taught you?" (If you can say this in Chinese even better). I believe one of several things will happen:
1. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then pat you on the back and say something like "oh no, you are doing really well - keep up the good work"
2. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then say "ok - lets see how you do" and teach you one or two very simple exercises that you will realize later are training muscles that you were not aware needed training - and will give you the strength to do "basics" properly.
3. Your Grandteacher will direct you towards your teacher, who he will give instructions to on how and what to teach you.

Regarding a Karate background: In Taiwan and China 30 or so years ago, if a student came with a solid Karate background, most Chinese teachers would consider their movement and mindset so corrupted that they would not bother trying to change it through remedial exercise.

Also: Yes, I have done MMA basic training - as long ago as 1995 and 1996. I found it less challenging then the boxing training of my youth. I have periodically revisited the issue, and while a lot has changed in terms of breadth of training, it still, in my opinion, doesn't hold up to Gleason's Gym circa 1962-65.

As far as military basic training goes - please stop whining. Both Doc and I went through shit in training (and later combat) in Vietnam and S.E. Asia that would make your hair curl. End of topic.
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:03 am

Just know that if you have a good teacher in todays world, pay close attention when you here things like "my teacher used to make us" or " if you really want to develop this " or " watch this is very important ". As I said earlier and as we all know the western mind and the modern world has seen much martial art instruction compacted into the time of an aerobics slot or yoga class. Or very expensive privates that may very well be a rip-off. How much time does today's average IMA teacher spend on deep stance low basin form work?
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:08 am

WD: Very important point - if your teacher is waxing nostalgic about how tough they had to train (and the exercises that they trained that they are no longer teaching or working on) the questions to ask are "what were those exercises" "why am I not being taught that way" and "how do I learn those exercises and learn them properly"?
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Re: Feck Qi. Its not what counts

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 pm

kenneth fish wrote:.....if your teacher is waxing nostalgic about how tough they had to train (and the exercises that they trained that they are no longer teaching or working on) the questions to ask are "what were those exercises" "why am I not being taught that way" and "how do I learn those exercises and learn them properly"?

Right on, Ken! 8-)

All too often, students fail to get the information and knowledge they're seeking simply because they don't ask the right questions. With very few exceptions, I am rarely asked good questions, and almost never asked the same questions which I asked my teachers. Go figure! :-\
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