Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby jjy5016 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:09 am

Hello Dan,

I'm sure that he tells a different story now that his status in yiquan was upgraded to teacher. This person was my younger classmate and never really got the basics of our class down well due to his time spent with our teacher.

Last time I saw "that person" I felt that he hadn't improved much. For the purpose of aikido and whatever he has learned from you he might have made a vast improvement but not in yiquan. He spoke highly about you and what he learned but I was not interested. I feel well within my right to say that I don't feel training in your methods had made a big difference in his skills. I apologized if I've bruised that rather large ego of yours.

Not sure what comment you are referring to about horizontal power with the spine.In the systems I practice and teach horizontal rotation of the spine is an essential element for issuing certain types of force. It's alright that you believe it has no substance. It works quite well for me.

All the BS aside you might very well be highly skilled Dan. I don't know. I'll describe what I do in detail whenever someone asks as I don't believe in mysteries and hype. I even invite them to come and meet me. You seem to want to get people in the doors at your workshops and do a good job of it I might add. I don't begrudge anyone making a living teaching. Wish I could quit my accounting job and do the same.

As I wrote in the unusual power post I have had my power tried and tested many times and lauded by more than one recognized Chinese grandmaster including this past weekend so I'm in no need of recognition or pats on the back from you nor am I promoting what I do. I do not make a living teaching or giving workshops. I post here to share with others and sometimes meet with them for the purpose of learning and practicing. It is a public forum and by posting here one is open to criticism.

Good luck to you.

small John
Last edited by jjy5016 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:35 am

Thinking about the movement of the fine mutifidi muscles as opposed to the manipulation of larger muscle of maybe say, for simplicity, the bicep. In flexing the bicep it is done with such ease, we really don't think about it until we reach near maximum tension, at which point we notice our breathing, so I would think the manipulation of such a fine muscle group as the multifidi would necessitate a very fine breath skill as well. So my question, as you work to create this spinal torquing/lengthening, what ever manipulation we would use to create this power,what kind of breath work would be warranted?
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Bodywork on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:25 am

jjy5016 wrote:Hello Dan,

I'm sure that he tells a different story now that his status in yiquan was upgraded to teacher. This person was my younger classmate and never really got the basics of our class down well due to his time spent with our teacher.

Last time I saw "that person" I felt that he hadn't improved much. For the purpose of aikido and whatever he has learned from you he might have made a vast improvement but not in yiquan. He spoke highly about you and what he learned but I was not interested. I feel well within my right to say that I don't feel training in your methods had made a big difference in his skills. I apologized if I've bruised that rather large ego of yours.

Not sure what comment you are referring to about horizontal power with the spine.In the systems I practice and teach horizontal rotation of the spine is an essential element for issuing certain types of force. It's alright that you believe it has no substance. It works quite well for me.

All the BS aside you might very well be highly skilled Dan. I don't know. I'll describe what I do in detail whenever someone asks as I don't believe in mysteries and hype. I even invite them to come and meet me. You seem to want to get people in the doors at your workshops and do a good job of it I might add. I don't begrudge anyone making a living teaching. Wish I could quit my accounting job and do the same.

As I wrote in the unusual power post I have had my power tried and tested many times and lauded by more than one recognized Chinese grandmaster including this past weekend so I'm in no need of recognition or pats on the back from you nor am I promoting what I do. I do not make a living teaching or giving workshops. I post here to share with others and sometimes meet with them for the purpose of learning and practicing. It is a public forum and by posting here one is open to criticism.

Good luck to you.

small John

First up I didn't say horizontal movement of the spine has no worth. I said other than stating the glaringly obvious fact that horizontal movement is involved, your comment lacked any substance. That is different from how you took it.
and on topic.
Many teachers -with power- really have never fought with it. That is a different category as many don't have that as a priority so we can use that for a different criteria, but their power is still testable without fighting. That is why the combination of the two is so interesting, but I see you didn't offer anything on topic.


Criticizing my efforts is fine. I just usually see more of a developed thought process behind it.
I would listen and consider, but your comments have no outside consideration other than for insulting me.
Case in point your rebuttal doesn't answer any of my points either. So since you put that single fellow up to judge a twenty plus year teaching career with over thousand people and hundreds of statements and reports to the contrary , I asked you if that is:
Developed enough to now be the standard?
Or was it ill thought?
Or is it simply intended as an insult only?
Simply questions since you came out of the blue to try to establish a single seminar attendee as a standard. So, does your assessment have value and consistency in thought that can raise it above a trolling standard or not?
Lets examine those questions again:

a. I have now met hundreds of students of some of the best Asian teachers of JMA and ICMA. Do I judge their Masterclass teachers...by them as single individuals?
Yes or no__________?
b. As a small example; should I start slamming Saotome, Yamada, Ikeda, Kiyama, Okomoto, Mochizuki, or Sam Chin, He Jinbao, and CJW, WHJ, LDX because of single students efforts?
Yes or no___________?
c. How about I do a write up of me putting my hands on some master class teachers themselves and the results. Unlike your comment about yourself- I didn't need them to vet...me...as it didn't go very well...FOR THEM. I have dates and details and witnesses.
Yes or no__________?
d. If and when we meet (and it goes as it usually does) should I come here and slam your teacher...because of you?
Yes or no__________?
e.Is that what RSF is about?
Yes or no__________?
I personally would answer no, but I would be interested in your logic and the thought process behind it, or lack therof.

Note:
See how I managed to formulate an entire post and thought process without the need to insult you personally? Weird Huh? Why do I display a consistency in a lack of interest in insulting those who insult me? ;)
Dan
Last edited by Bodywork on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:30 am

WD,

...so I would think the manipulation of such a fine muscle group as the multifidi would necessitate a very fine breath skill as well.


No, it doesn't require it in that breath control and muscle control don't exist in an exact 1:1 relationship. By experience, where it helps is in the basic rule of thumb, "What you can feel, you can control.". The first thing one needs to do is learn to feel that area proprioceptively, and zhan zhuang is perhaps one of the best ways to go about it. Since breath work and improvement of proprioceptive sense/control go hand in hand in zhan zhuang, it's natural that they work well together.

So my question, as you work to create this spinal torquing/lengthening, what ever manipulation we would use to create this power,what kind of breath work would be warranted?


Well, I certainly don't have a monopoly on this information, but how I was taught and how I have found works most naturally in context is the same breathing one uses when issuing fajin. In fact, I was taught that this skill is the completion of fajin, whereas most folks associate it with waist movement.
Last edited by Chris McKinley on Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:41 am

jjy and Dan,

Whatever the legitimacy of your respective points regarding each other, I would ask that you please take it to another forum or to PM, and try and keep the discussion in here on topic. Neither jjy5016's or Dan Harden's legitimacy is the topic, so let's try and steer it back please.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby jjy5016 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:46 am

Standing is definitely one way of doing it. From the first day my teacher said that the up and down of the spine would be the hardest stretch of all the six directions. I also learned methods using a short stick similar to suburi and the bang (short fat piece of round wood) for practicing the fa jin aspect of the stretch. There are also a few walking practices. In theory it can be practiced in just about any movement. But it can get hard on the lower back if you do it too much.

Deep reverse breathing seems to help me a bit in that my lower back cracks as if I were on a chiropractor's table. What some refer to as sinking the qi I guess.

I believe that there are several practices in yoga that might assist with the stretching. But mostly I believe it just develops from thousands of relaxed, careful repetitions.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby GaryR on Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:52 pm

Chris McKinley wrote:Check that Shooter thread for some of the most useful info, both from myself and others. Steve Rowe has been putting out some good blog articles and clips. Meeks's stuff is always good. As to Dan's stuff, he's well known for both his secrecy and self-promotion with his material as well as his...undiplomatic....treatment of everyone else. I've recently searched his entire posting history and found nothing specific or substantive. Others have different opinions of it. I think he's probably got some good stuff, but none of that group has shared much of anything tangible or specific. I would recommend you check him out for yourself if you are inclined and you find the opportunity.


Excellent, thanks, I'll take a look. Sorry if I put this thread askew a bit more I just wanted to interject momentarily with a comment and question;

I can understand where Dan is coming from re some students not being a good representatives, some students just always suck, many bounce between "name" teachers and you guessed it, still manage to suck. So it's certainly not fair for jjy to judge Dan by that.

My question is for Dan, I noticed you are coming to CA soon. What will you be teaching at the seminar? Do you have any information (course description, video, brochure, etc..) available? If so, please link me, the wonderful thing about the martial arts is there is always something to learn.

Best,

G
Last edited by GaryR on Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Bhassler on Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:15 pm

I haven't weighed in on this for a couple of reasons, mostly because I don't want to go down some BTDT paths, and also because I have yet to see a viable application (anywhere) that of necessity requires a person to have internal power (I always assume a bigger, stronger, more viciouser opponent). At the same time, I am firmly in the internal camp in that I believe it to be (for me, anyways) a superior methodology. I've been working on articulating why I think IMA are superior, and so far have not been able to do so without stating some core beliefs that I'm not really prepared to defend. So I'll leave that as a caveat emptor and let people decide for themselves what, if any of it, is relevant to their own practice.

Correct "internal" movement is self-limiting. That is to say, if your shit's wired up tight, you cannot compromise your structure without changing the mode of movement, so things like overbalancing yourself, etc. are not an issue. Correct ranges of movement are automatically felt rather than consciously controlled. Furthermore, pressure in any direction is distributed through the whole, so the whole structure will deform proportionately (a la a tensegrity structure or a suspension bridge) into a new, stable structure. So the necessary adaptations to outside pressures are an automatic rebalancing of the whole and not a specific response. This taps into one of the most basic functions of the nervous system (balancing in gravity), and as one of our most primitive functions it is among the least likely to degrade under stress.

Compensation strategies can be conditioned into the nervous system, rather than specific actions. Tony Blauer has made a living off of Operant Conditioning and his spear technique, etc, but I believe one could just as easily condition a response pattern, instead. Specifically, I'm thinking of physical relaxation as a response to stress or pain. Lots of techniques and expectations get jacked up when you start melting away from what people are trying to do to you and suddenly fall/circle back around into a structure that they're not prepared to deal with.

So all this leads into lots of interesting defenses and counters, and also gets into recovery from ambush and dealing with adrenaline dumps and even becomes useful when dealing with social scripts and keeping one out of legal trouble. It touches on the nature of balance and postural organization so that one is ready to apply the right technique at the right time (speed of opportunity). It also feels really nice and is quite perceptually "safe" for your nervous system, which in the absence of other directives is what we default to. It's a way of building faith in one's shit that bypasses many of the traps of cognitive belief and jumps right in at the core neurological level.

So that's me spouting a bunch of shit that would probably take several PhD theses to somewhat justify scientifically, and since I'm basically a hobbyist and not out in the field working my shit day in and day out, it's not too likely I'll be out touring the world and smashing the heads of my detractors any time soon, either. Personally, I think they're some pretty interesting thoughts, but since they ultimately come down to beliefs and not concrete fact, I'm not sure where it belongs in the conversation.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:16 pm

Specifically, I'm thinking of physical relaxation as a response to stress or pain.


As a former neurofizz and someone who has spent decades developing exactly that idea, including pioneering some trance-based methods, I can tell you it's possible. I can also tell you that it's only possible up to a point and that there are physiological limits. As someone who just this past Monday experienced a level of pain in the ER that Tordol, hydrocodone, muscle relaxers, and morphine all at the same time couldn't touch, I can tell you that there are thresholds past which such training simply begins to fail as the body's hard-wired brainstem responses begin to supercede. Muscular tension of the voluntary muscles, spasm of the smooth muscle of the enteric canal, convulsions, nausea/vomiting, ringing in the ears, tunnel vision, incontinence and loss of consciousness are all possible as a response to sufficient pain or injury trauma. Neigong isn't magic and because it isn't, past a point it will fail if the right physiological conditions are present.

One of the reasons we train for so much relaxation is so that we will have at least a little something left when Murphy comes along and takes his cut off the top in a real violent assault. So really, bottom line....yeah, you can most definitely train in some of the qualities you're describing. I've built a martial career on it to some degree. It's also not a magic bullet with no limits, and unfortunately, it also doesn't work with 100% consistency even to the degree that it does work. But real combat is a game of playing the percentages, and when faced with real threats to life and limb, we take all the advantages we can get, no matter how slight.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby nianfong on Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:33 pm

Bodywork wrote:
jjy5016 wrote:Good to see that others do it.

Chris when you speak of spinal torque it makes me think of a horizontal movement of the spine instead of the vertical stretch.

D_Glenn I wasn't sure if that was what you were talking about in that post you linked to.

I find that I can use it for both long and short power. Don't really test it out too much on others. Usually I just let them hang onto an arm loosely or have them hold a thick book against the chest and I release through the fingers into it.

I''ve only taught it to a few of my classmates but none of them seem to want to do it. Almost like they are afraid. One of them has gone to about a dozen Dan Harden workshops and he isn't showing it. Poor guy hasn't improved much either. Last time I pushed hands with him it didn't seem to have helped him much if at all. Harden is doing a similar thing to what Sigman used to do which is to stir up interest in his workshops by starting up a heated discussion. What I find with a bunch of names mentioned in the "unusual power" thread is that a lot of their technique and power has to do with their size. Not saying that the individuals noted in that thread don't have real skill. Saying that I wonder how much of it has to do with their size.

Harden's coming to NJ and I was tempted to go check him out but don't want to fork over $175.00 to see if he's all that. Besides, I try to avoid NJ as much as possible.

Well that's my "secret" technique contribution to the thread. Anyone else?

Well, that's fascinating
a. That person tells a different story about you
b. Summing up twenty years of my teaching -with some very potent men that hundreds have felt...all by you (or anyone) meeting one person speaks for itself.
c. I have now met hundreds of students of the very best teachers of JMA and ICMA alive. Do I judge the Masterclass teachers...by them? Should I start slamming Sam Chin, He Jinbao, and CJW, WHJ, LDX because of their students efforts? How about I do a write up of me putting my hands on some master class teacheres themselves and the results. I have dates and details and witnesses.
Is that what RSF is about?
If and when we meet (and it goes as it usually does) should I come here and slam your teacher...because of you?

I agree with the premise of seeing if someone has power, then if they have students with power. I fit that description. Hundreds of senior people have met dozens of my students. You are a nobody (that's okay I am too) standing on the street corner, taking a cheap shot that cost you nothing....good job!

The good news is that for the *majority* of us who stay in Budo, we usually meet people just like ourselves; seasoned people with views developed through experience, trial and failure, somewhat jaded, but fair minded straight shooters.

Dan


Dan,
Here is an example of what I've referred to in other posts. Nowhere on this thread do I see you contribute any constructive information. Everything is critical of others or boasting about your own knowledge. Here in the Distillery, all posts must be on topic. If they do not, your privileges can be revoked. In light of your recent posts in all the other threads, you may even be banned.

If you were a noob you'd already be banned right now. Please check your own behavior, or you will be forced to by me, and you don't want that.

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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:14 pm

jjy5016 wrote:Anyone using the spine to produce similar results?

...D_Glenn, I wasn't sure if that was what you were talking about in that post you linked to.

...Well that's my "secret" technique contribution to the thread. Anyone else?


(new info in bold type)

Basic ways of looking at Force in the Chinese Martial Systems. Which also represent a natural progression or order that they're learned in so that one fully develops the skills.

1. 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact or Thrusting Force) a.k.a. 撞擊力 Zhuàng​jī Li (Hitting; Colliding Force) is the standard way that all the worlds martial artists punch and strike. It's like hitting a nail with a hammer. When we speak of Forces or adding in forces this is the 1st force. This is the initial contact of fist to body. The Chongji Li can be done with a short, medium, or long force as well as soft or hard.

2. 螺旋力 Luoxuan Li (Spiraling; Drilling Force) or 自轉力 Zì​zhuàn Li (Rotating Force) is when one physically twists, drills, and rotates the fist, bones of the forearm, and shoulder as the strike is landing or the arm is bridging. This is the drilling force that gives Xingyi that extra boost. It's also the spiraling that makes throwing harder to counter. In Bagua we use this to disperse the impact around more surface area of our own forearm whilst hitting a single area on the opponent's arm or body. Etc.

3. 發力 'Fa Li' is another mechanical movement or 'force' that can be done in addition to the 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì force and adds in a 2nd movement and a following force to the initial strike. This is done through a quick movement of the spine, coordinated with the movement of the arms and legs. Storing up (蓄 xù) then releasing (發 fa) and the secondary force travels out through the arms. In the Chinese Martial Arts there is the Liu Gong (6 Bows -as in 'bow & arrow') meaning the 1&2- the 2 parts of the spinal column (lumbar & thoracic), 3&4 - the two arms, 5&6 - the two legs. In the Internal arts we seek to coordinate the 2 parts of the spine into a single continuous movement to allow the power in the legs to transfer upward to power the arms. The training of which is called making the 6 bows become 5, giving us the "5 Bows" of the body. The movements in the CMAs are said to start at the 'root and not the tip' - the root of the arm is the shoulder, the root of the leg is the hip, and the root of the spine is the tailbone or sacrum and tucking the tailbone under (shoulders moving forward) with a fast quick movement is how we 發力 Fa Li / 發勁 Fa jin, which is also called 波浪勁 Bo Lang Jin (Crashing Wave Power). Untucking the tailbone with force while the shoulders are moving backward is called Fan Lang Jin (Returning wave power) and is a different type of Fa JIn.

Learning to 發力 'Fa Li' is a precursor to learning the following 2 Forces:

4. 爆破力 Baopo Li (Exploding Force) a.k.a. 寸力 Cùn Li​ (Inch Force) is the ability to generate force in a very short space. After one first learns to 'Fa Li' with the spine then they can begin to learn this force where you need to store up (蓄 xù) very quickly and efficiently, or rather the storing up part needs to also be done within a short or confined space and then release the force (發 fa) in an equally as quick manner, like a quick pulse rather than a wave, and this could be a short movement or long movement of the arm with the quick pulse at the end.

and

5. 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) a.k.a. 抖勁 dǒujìn​ (tremble; shaking energy). Is an even shorter or quicker pulse then the Baopo Li, hence the reason it's easier to learn this after that is learned.This is quick sudden variations in the 肌肉 jī​ròu (muscles and flesh) and a shifting between 鬆 sōng (relaxation) and 緊 jǐn (tension). The goal of this force is that it 透勁 tòujìn​ (penetrates; passes through) and into the internal organs of the opponent, damaging them. It's also used in quick succession to take the slack out of the opponent's limbs and joints and thereby being able to affect their spinal column and whole body, primarily to aid in throwing but the shaking/shocking can itself cause soft tissue damage to the limbs and body, and even whiplash or injure the neck. This power and force that comes from the 發力 'Fa Li' and movement of the spine and the movement of the of the Dantian, which when moved it's force is somewhat 'omnidirectional', or expanding outward in all directions, so a good portion of the power is also going down to the foot and this is the reason for the rule of "The hand and foot arriving at the same time." or timing the landing of the foot with the hand hitting the opponent so that most of the force goes into the opponent. If the foot lands before the hand then most of the force is dissipated into the ground. We take advantage of this force traveling to the leg and the 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) is actually a 3rd outgoing force into the opponent, arriving just after the 1st (衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì) and the 2nd (發力 'Fa Li' ). So this 振 Zhèn (Shocking force) comes from using some of our Intent (意 'Yi') to 發 'Fa' into the feet while the upper body is relaxed and then a delayed force comes back up from the ground and adds in a 3rd dispersive or explosive force to the initial strike.

***

[Note- that these clips are all old and may or may not have been seen before but re-posting now with more context.]

Here's a clip of me using Baguazhang's Dragon Zhen Trigram techniques, which seeks to use and have the 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) in all of it's strikes and throws. We train to develop both a normal FaLi in all our techniques and practicing all the techniques with a 'Zhen' Shock force, the difference after it's developed is just a thought - A) strike normal and try to put all the power into the arm, or B) relax the upper body and arm and seek to put the power down into the feet as if you're stomping and let the power reverberate up through the arm.

In comparison to the other animal systems the legs in the Dragon are the primary source of power and the waist and arms only supplement the power in the legs. Because there's not a whole lot of strenght horizontally in the waist and torso making it more relaxed, the Dragon can afford to turn the shoulders further to side then the hips when it's completing it's techniques. Opposed to the Lion System where the waist is the primary source of power with legs and arms supplementing, and there is a lot more strength in the waist and torso so it needs to keep the shoulders more inline/ facing the same direction as the waist, and only slightly turned more to the sides than the hips.




***
Now here's a clip of me using only 波浪勁 Bo Lang Jin (Crashing Wave Power) to 發力 'Fa Li':




***
And the same form done with 波浪勁 Bo Lang Jin (Crashing Wave Power) to 發力 'Fa Li' immediately followed with a Fan Lang Jin (Returning wave power):



Also note that these clips show the part of our practice where we 發力 'Fa Li' in every strike. After one learns to emit power in every movement the same drills and forms are done while holding back the power, almost emitting but right at the last moment it circles back around (called Hunyuan) which is also the way it's used in an actual fight.


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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby Chris McKinley on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:47 pm

D_Glenn,

Extremely valuable post! Thank you so much for sharing it. IMO, that post should be a sticky in one of the FAQ threads. I haven't seen anybody on any forum ever come as close to describing the differences, force quality-wise, as you just did between classical and Swimming Dragon Bagua, which as I was taught them would more or less correspond to Lion and Dragon as you have here described them, respectively. The SD stuff also often contains elements of Baopo Li and Zhen Dongli, though sometimes originated via outer dantiens as opposed to Mother Dantien. Again, very cool. Thanks.
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Re: Realistic Combat Applications of IP

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:50 pm

Thanks. I share what I can, which is probably only around 50% of what I know and/or have written down; and all that is still only around 10% of what my teacher knows.

***

Could you explain more about the SD stuff?


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