Realistic Combat Applications of IP

[GaryR]

Great thread Chis, been awhile since we've talked, hope all is well. I miss having my old training buddy! You need to move to LA.

Anyhow, I know there is already a video section, but I think this thread would be best served if people could manage a way to video some apps w/ the explainations? Heck, most people have phones that can capture and upload video clips, if only one can find a partner and some time? (assuming of course you don't attend regular classes in which both are available.) After I overview some general principals I use when teaching, I'll describe a method or two, and upload the video of it when I get a chance for a more accurate picture.

Generally, my training approach is to first embed the concepts of intent, distance, and timing control with the most basic of methods under a sliding scale of speed, power, and randomized attacks at different points in the training to highlight different principles that can be applied w/in the methods and make them functional as progress allows. While this is being taught, the student will be learning the basic IP mechanics utilizing such flexible simple techniques/methods using the the simple methods as the beggining of several templates.

For "applications", I first teach a very general and short fluid movement "drills" that have numerous built in "results" as I'll call them, depending on what the assailant, or would be assailant does. The movment should be able to have numerous incarnations depending on what "jings" one uses, what the opponents weakness are w/in his movement that can be exploited dynamically within the motion without thinking for starters.

Ill do my best to describe an example:

General movement:

1) if starting from a basic san ti position with the left hand forward and fingertips around nose height -the left hand (open) sweeps on a mostly horizontal plane in clockwise circular motion,

2) at the same time the lead hand moves, the back hand also moves in a clockwise direction (perhaps even slightly faster so when and if contact is made with the left/lead hand first--the back / right hand can strike at the same time the initial contact is made during the circle.
-----during this movement the waist first turns to the left as the hands both move clockwise. (Note; I'm left handed and use lead hand, lead leg, since its better coordinated to first intercept/attack, and short power eliminates the need for the hand to be caulked back to do any damage) The right hands circle should cross slightly over the palm/fingers of the left hand.

3) The left hand keeps circling and comes around again in a clockwise / elipise like circle to attack / defend again.

Rinse and repeat the motion continueously without stopping, start slowing then work up to explosive speed keeping the movement even and on its basic pathway.

One of the applications in the movement; The left / lead hand makes contact (at the palm/fingers), to the outside of the opp's right jab-as the right knife edge/pisiform bone moves along the circle and makes contact to the temple, neck, or whatever optimal target, the right hand after striking continues on its path as the waist turns to the right, the right hand can serve to block a second cross like punch (or even grab if possible) while the left palm smashes into the head or neck.

I'll upload a video when I can get a partner and some training time. It would however be an interesting experiment to see if we can possibly replicate each others techniques based on the description alone, so if someone decides to try it and wants to upload a video before I do feel free...

Best,


G

[Chris McKinley]

Gary,

Good to hear from you. Hope things are going well. Thanks for contributing to the thread. This has been up for a while and without much real participation. Same went with Shooter's really good What Are You Gonna Do About It? thread a while back on the main forum. My conclusion is that most of the folks here really aren't all that interested in it despite their claims. That's not a newsflash or anything, but I kinda hoped that with all the hooplah being made over Dan Harden's IP/IS stuff over the last few months, if the opportunity for discussing the fighting aspects of it came up, they might jump on it. Unfortunately, this thread, and really even the whole Distillery forum concept, just hasn't taken off. Everybody seems to claim to want more info on "real IP", but when given a chance to talk specifically about it, they don't really seem to have the follow-through. Ah well, c'est la internet.

[Wanderingdragon]

This thread has brought to light, IMO, what I have suspected for a while. Not a lot of people know or if they know, are willing to talk about internal applications or their art's internal skills development, as I alluded to at the beginning of the thread, for fear of divulging any "secrets".'I have always been one to share wholeheartedly ,if you are there you will get it, if not even if I say it, it remains a secret. Internal application and the study itself is simple, but it seems to get complicated when to many words are involved. There have been some simple examples of internal application that I for one have gotten right away, but no discussion, again as I alluded to earlier, either we don't get it and we don't want anyone to know, or we do get it and it is clear, or we just got it and have taken it to work on as if we have stolen something, this is the nature of secrets I spoke of at the beginning. Peace "€

[jjy5016]

I had a guy come and visit me from this forum a few years ago. Said he wanted to learn the basics of yiquan. After meeting him it turns out that his father in law is Wu Bin, Jet Li's main teacher. To make a long story short he said that when his father in law practiced hsing yi in the house he made the place shake. I said that I believed it because of the stomping involve. The guy replied that his father in law did not stomp.

This puzzled me that Wu Bin could produce power without stomping that could shake the floors in a house. The only explanation that I could come up with was that he was using his spine in a manner that my sifu (RIP) had told me about but never tried. I tried the method out without stepping and it worked.

I've tried the method while having others hold onto one of my arms loosely and they all say that it is like getting an electric shock (not qi just the suddeness or the issue)

Anyone using the spine to produce similar results?

I will expound on this later. Just want to see who's doing what. I know it's in LHBF and hsing yi.

small John

[jjy5016]

No one uses the spine to generate a sudden burst of power?

The method I use is simply stretching the spine very quickly in opposite directions. Like taking a belt, folding it in half and pulling the ends in opposite directions to produce the cracking sound.

This is one of the "secrets" of yiquan & hsing yi that I was taught. I discussed it with a disciple of Leung Wah a few years ago and he admitted that it was one of the secrets LHBF. I also talked about it with a student of Han Xing Yuen who acknowleged it but would not talk about it in detail.

Anyone else doing something similar?

[edededed]

Sounds very interesting - of course we train the spine stretch, but I don't know if there is an additional stretch when striking... let me try asking around... (might take a while, though.)

Interesting also that Wu Bin practices xingyiquan

[Wanderingdragon]

Ah! This is one I don't know, it is a secret to me. I know of nine joints three of which are responsible for the flexion of the spine, but I do not know of them generating any great power without the whole of all nine joints.

[D_Glenn]

Anyone using the spine to produce similar results?

I am.

Posted a quick description of the mechanics here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13427

At a seminar in SF we were on the 2nd story of this building and my teacher started doing some standing-in-place striking drills and was rocking the whole building with each strike.
Some people down on the 1st floor had to come running up to see what was going on.


.

[Chris McKinley]

jjy5016,

I have practiced and taught that ability for years. IIRC, I've also given a somewhat detailed account of how it works and how to train it a few years ago on RSF. The parlor trick version for demonstration is knocking someone larger than you back with a fully extended arm at zero distance with spinal torque alone. It's the engine for true short power.

[GaryR]

Gary,

Good to hear from you. Hope things are going well. Thanks for contributing to the thread. This has been up for a while and without much real participation. Same went with Shooter's really good What Are You Gonna Do About It? thread a while back on the main forum. My conclusion is that most of the folks here really aren't all that interested in it despite their claims. That's not a newsflash or anything, but I kinda hoped that with all the hooplah being made over Dan Harden's IP/IS stuff over the last few months, if the opportunity for discussing the fighting aspects of it came up, they might jump on it. Unfortunately, this thread, and really even the whole Distillery forum concept, just hasn't taken off. Everybody seems to claim to want more info on "real IP", but when given a chance to talk specifically about it, they don't really seem to have the follow-through. Ah well, c'est la internet.

Sad state of affairs then. Ill check out those other threads if I get time, anything of specific value? Dan harden stuff?-- Are there videos to check out or some deleted threads I'm missing?? Man I need to catch up.

All we can do is try and increase the signal to noise and hope for the best. Any chat room action these days?

Best

G

[Chris McKinley]

Check that Shooter thread for some of the most useful info, both from myself and others. Steve Rowe has been putting out some good blog articles and clips. Meeks's stuff is always good. As to Dan's stuff, he's well known for both his secrecy and self-promotion with his material as well as his...undiplomatic....treatment of everyone else. I've recently searched his entire posting history and found nothing specific or substantive. Others have different opinions of it. I think he's probably got some good stuff, but none of that group has shared much of anything tangible or specific. I would recommend you check him out for yourself if you are inclined and you find the opportunity.

[jjy5016]

Good to see that others do it.

Chris when you speak of spinal torque it makes me think of a horizontal movement of the spine instead of the vertical stretch.

D_Glenn I wasn't sure if that was what you were talking about in that post you linked to.

I find that I can use it for both long and short power. Don't really test it out too much on others. Usually I just let them hang onto an arm loosely or have them hold a thick book against the chest and I release through the fingers into it.

I''ve only taught it to a few of my classmates but none of them seem to want to do it. Almost like they are afraid. One of them has gone to about a dozen Dan Harden workshops and he isn't showing it. Poor guy hasn't improved much either. Last time I pushed hands with him it didn't seem to have helped him much if at all. Harden is doing a similar thing to what Sigman used to do which is to stir up interest in his workshops by starting up a heated discussion. What I find with a bunch of names mentioned in the "unusual power" thread is that a lot of their technique and power has to do with their size. Not saying that the individuals noted in that thread don't have real skill. Saying that I wonder how much of it has to do with their size.

Harden's coming to NJ and I was tempted to go check him out but don't want to fork over $175.00 to see if he's all that. Besides, I try to avoid NJ as much as possible.

Well that's my "secret" technique contribution to the thread. Anyone else?

[Chris McKinley]

jjy,

Chris when you speak of spinal torque it makes me think of a horizontal movement of the spine instead of the vertical stretch.

Yeah, that's because it's mostly about generating large amounts of torque, with sections of the spine twisting slightly in opposite directions, and only a small amount from a change in the length of the spine. The spine's length can physically only be altered by flattening the curves of the thoracic and lumbar sections, causing momentary lordosis and kyphosis of those sections, respectively. You create that effect by thrusting your chest out and flattening your lower back simultaneously. The force generated from doing so is noticeable, but not as much as that which is generated in the form of torque by the transverse twisting of different sections by the multifidae and other muscles. The latter is exactly the same motion seen when dogs shake water off their bodies, though dogs have a much greater natural and conscious control over the motion than humans.

[Wanderingdragon]

Yeah see this is when I know I am way out of my depth, when people start talking of manipulating the spine by independent flexing of the multifidus muscles to move the spine in sectional sequence that's just something I can only aspire to.

[Bodywork]

Good to see that others do it.

Chris when you speak of spinal torque it makes me think of a horizontal movement of the spine instead of the vertical stretch.

D_Glenn I wasn't sure if that was what you were talking about in that post you linked to.

I find that I can use it for both long and short power. Don't really test it out too much on others. Usually I just let them hang onto an arm loosely or have them hold a thick book against the chest and I release through the fingers into it.

I''ve only taught it to a few of my classmates but none of them seem to want to do it. Almost like they are afraid. One of them has gone to about a dozen Dan Harden workshops and he isn't showing it. Poor guy hasn't improved much either. Last time I pushed hands with him it didn't seem to have helped him much if at all. Harden is doing a similar thing to what Sigman used to do which is to stir up interest in his workshops by starting up a heated discussion. What I find with a bunch of names mentioned in the "unusual power" thread is that a lot of their technique and power has to do with their size. Not saying that the individuals noted in that thread don't have real skill. Saying that I wonder how much of it has to do with their size.

Harden's coming to NJ and I was tempted to go check him out but don't want to fork over $175.00 to see if he's all that. Besides, I try to avoid NJ as much as possible.

Well that's my "secret" technique contribution to the thread. Anyone else?

Well, that's fascinating
a. That person tells a different story about you
b. Summing up twenty years of my teaching -with some very potent men that hundreds have felt...all by you (or anyone) meeting one person speaks for itself.
c. I have now met hundreds of students of the very best teachers of JMA and ICMA alive. Do I judge the Masterclass teachers...by them? Should I start slamming Sam Chin, He Jinbao, and CJW, WHJ, LDX because of their students efforts? How about I do a write up of me putting my hands on some master class teacheres themselves and the results. I have dates and details and witnesses.
Is that what RSF is about?
If and when we meet (and it goes as it usually does) should I come here and slam your teacher...because of you?

I agree with the premise of seeing if someone has power, then if they have students with power. I fit that description. Hundreds of senior people have met dozens of my students. You are a nobody (that's okay I am too) standing on the street corner, taking a cheap shot that cost you nothing....good job!

The good news is that for the *majority* of us who stay in Budo, we usually meet people just like ourselves; seasoned people with views developed through experience, trial and failure, somewhat jaded, but fair minded straight shooters.

Dan