Controlling an opponent: grappling vs. IMA

[Interloper]

I have no issues against formal martial arts systems. A LOT of good stuff ... most good stuff... comes from traditional IMAs! But I do believe that the underlying body method itself that powers those IMAs, and learning to fight with it with whatever works from the great wealth of arts out there -- without binding oneself to the limitations of any one system -- will make you a better-rounded fighter. It seems to me that the men who are the greatest fighters within the martial arts, have backgrounds in multiple martial approaches and do not think in the "I do this art, so I have to use this specific technique or approach, even if something else from "outside" works better." In other words, they are "mixed-martial artists" in the truest sense.

The OP was asking about grappling vs. IMA, saying "in such-and-such art they do this, and in so-and-so art they do that," which I think is very limiting -- you restrict yourself to acting in only in certain ways to control an opponent. I am saying that's not the way to go about it. Instead, learn grappling AND learn an IMA... that has actual IMA core body method... and his question will answer itself. And, yeah, continue to train in and enjoy your IMA of choice.

[Patrick]

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[Chris McKinley]

Interloper,

I actually agree with you completely. However, I can only do so because I know from whence you speak and from having done exactly that with a multitudinous array of situations, fighters, styles, etc. Where you're not making your point is in the fact that you are providing absolutely no actual examples of doing exactly what you are describing. You are writing from an assumption that your readers already know exactly what core internal movement is, how to divorce it from specific stylized practice, and how to apply it to literally any form of movement you wish. I do, and some others may as well, but most, I would venture to guess, do not.

IOW, it's quite easy to talk about "think[ing] internal power method that makes real tai chi powerful and real bagua and xing-yi powerful, and learn to how grapple with THAT", but from experience, it's quite another to actually manifest it under fully resisting duress conditions, or even to apply it in practice with other movement and techniques if one has never done so. What is needed, either from you or from one of the other representatives of the IP/IS approach, is to provide even one singular example description of doing exactly that. We've read lots and lots of admonitions to do so, both from yourself and your fellow proponents, but what we've never seen from any of you is a descriptive example of exactly how one who was convinced of your argument might go about doing so.

[TrainingDummy]

The other way would be, you use your structure to send your weight into his structure. E.g. when he uses his grip, you then can extent in his structure and break his root.This way you could ignore his power (very hard to do!). If you recive his force you try to absorb it and then project it, by making minor ajustments to your own structure and using your mind. Sounds a bit wacky, but I hope you can understand it.

When wrestling, I don't like to send weight into the opponents until I have the superior angle. So I don't bounce someone they're struggling to get out of a poor position I've put them through clinch. My game is more fade, fade, fade -> clinch and swim in -> throw

I personally like to stick and rollback when faced with heavy force, and typically use a stealing step on the rollback to go from wrist->elbow->shoulder\hip\head control and then attempt to throw. If the person really goes for it I'll usually roll back, turn and attempt to hip throw\ leg wheel.

So I'm not in full agreement with the "way the wrestler's do it" versus "way the IMA peep's do it", but as you said I'm highly tainted by by IMA training. My personal training goals are mostly focused around using a IMA structure with high percentage MMA techniques.

[Walk the Torque]

The only thing I would like to contribute to this discussion is the mentioning of 4 ounces deflecting a thousand pounds.

Now how you apply this is very much to do with what you are trying to achieve, and the tools and method you choose to achieve it.

If you use a spiraling technique on contact with the opponents body to disperse their force and gain a superior position from which to counter with a strike then this is one way. If you use plain structure and "circle walk" your way into a superior position, then that is another. If intercepting and leading are your method then here is yet another way. They all rely on the sensitivity to use the 4 ounce rule to be able to pull them off.

Whether working heavy or light, for me falling back on the base point of 4 ounces is crucial to using anything I've learnt in IMA.

Although I favour more of a Bagua flavor for wrestling encounters these days, I have spent a considerable amount of time on (techniques from tai chi) neutralizing grips at a certain distance (trapping range) that serves well as a kind of anti chi-na. If an opponant's attack can be maintained At this distance and any advance intercepted it works well for me. If the opponent gets past this line of defense I face a different set of problems.

Where I am going now with my approach to wrestling is to explore more deeply the change over point between these distances and the type of "energy" I use. For example at the trapping range I mentioned I will rely more of an expansive
centrfugal peng approach to dealing with attacks. However when the opponent has closed to a clinch I am attempting an absorb/neutralize/takedown-throw by switching to a more centripetal contracting approach augmented with walking for the change of angle. Effectively pulling the opponent into a downward spiral.

Well that's my 2c worth

Ta Ta

[64Palms]

This is a topic which has come to my mind many years in the past. Rather than playing around with other IMA enthusiasts I simply went to an academy that teaches wrestling, BJJ, "MMA", Muay Thai etc and trained with them. Luckily I have some exceptional coaches there who respect the fact that I have been involved in martial arts, specifically IMA for a good part of 20 years. In fact besides some postural changes, hints on technical issues and of course teaching wrestling specific moves (e.g. a proper double leg and so on) I am encouraged to use the body that I have already developed. Similar to BJJ, however, being such an incredibly technical art and a ground art I have taken it upon myself to really approach the learning of BJJ with an empty mind.

I have found that there is little difference in "IMA" style wrestling than with other styles. Judoka have exceptional hips, know how to spin correctly, and know how to manipulate their opponents centre / balance for their advantage - and it can be incredibly soft. I think many of the more mainstream practitioners who dabble in "MMA" styles develop what we would consider internal power (which is such a loose term in itself that it really becomes misleading) naturally, without knowing. This is very strong. Of course I refer to the underlying principles of body mechanics - naturally the expression is different which develops the recognisable style.

Interestingly I get asked a lot about where I learned kickboxing and boxing. Just last night I was the sparring partner for one of our pro fighters (MMA) and the same thing happened. I actually think my boxing (as pure boxing) is very weak yet, I have had no formal training in it, my footwork which stems from BGZ, is strong and allows me to move and close the distance etc with relative ease jab / punch is easy (for me anyhow).

Martial Arts are all the same in the end. They boil down to an understanding (for the individual) of how to use their body, read your opponents body and manipulate it to your advantage. The end result of stance, strike, grapple etc is circumstantial - which is why we cross train or at least delve deep into one art to enable us to apply it on all levels.

[everything]

Not sure of the question. In judo, weight at weak points,i.e., leverage, is clearly used. The grip fighting is somewhat sport specific, not really in what I assume you mean by IMA. Otherwise, general leverage is universal. Grappling sports are specific games. Judo shiai requires offense. So "weird" seemingly gratuitous motions happen.