...augment that force with one's own self-generated power through creating opposing spirals that produce a dynamic tension that can be exploited in a number of ways, including to power strikes; and through winding force cross-body to power the waist, torso and upper body without sacrificing stability or creating openings for an opponent to attack. All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.
DeusTrismegistus wrote:Wow. Really good post Gary. I tried drawing the diagrams but some of instructions are unclear. Could you be more specific about the cross in the first diagram, is it an equal armed cross or a tau cross? One the circle diagram could you be more specific with the orientation of the circles at the locations other than the waist?
I am going to have to think of this concept more before I can respond more accurately.
middleway wrote:Sounds like the symbol for my stuff that I came up with as a similar geometric teaching / training tool.
http://www.uk-ima.co.uk/aboutukima/whatsinthesymbol/tabid/1100/language/en-us/default.aspx
Bottom of the page.
Thanks for the interesting post.
Regards
Chris
Interloper wrote:
What you are asking is difficult to address, because you're describing not "a principle," but the product of a complex, multi-layered body method. It is not a "thing that you do," but a way to "be."
Chris McKinley wrote: let's also put aside the error of claiming that it ought to be a state of being and then immediately providing examples which are all themselves behaviors.
Interloper wrote:It begins with the foundation of a structured body that can ... All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.
Interloper wrote:When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact.
Interloper wrote:If you decide to add physical technique -- throws, locks, strikes, kicks -- your internal state of being will make those physical expressions more powerful than if they were driven by conventional power sources (e.g. muscle strength/flexation; hip-driven torsion or torque and momentum to create acceleration of mass)
Wanderingdragon wrote:Extend one hand out in front of you and draw a horizontal circle by only turning the waist, now extend both arms out to the side and create a vertical circle using the same method. These are fundamental basics, so basic they are seen in warmups, this is the structural influence of your sphere. The key is in creating zero gaps by way of technical skill.
GaryR wrote:Interloper wrote:It begins with the foundation of a structured body that can ... All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.
"It" as in what you may be describing is NOT what this thread is particularly about. For this discussions it can be assumed that all of what you are describing is already intact in the person to some appreciable degree. This is what I meant when I said in the initial post : "When Spheres collide (or perhaps another incoming line/vector/shape), structure must be maintained while taking there's." All of your "begins with" items are really included in that little sentence of mine, it needed no extrapolation because this discussion is really meant to be well beyond what you are describing.
Interloper wrote:When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact.
GaryR wrote:Ok, so taking this a bit off topic and attempting to segway back--you can think of a marble in the center of the sphere that has these qualities. That marble in the center can/will spin. The marble can spin in the dead center of the sphere (like a top in place), or can roll around in the sphere and spin. Nonetheless, the lines and circles coming out of that spinning, reaction to stimuli, body structure/movement etc. are what is in play in this thread. Learning how to dynamically use the circles within the sphere (and in relation to your opponents "sphere" (or other angle of attack) is key.
If you would like to discuss the qualities of the "marble" per se or the "state of being", that is a whole other thread or series of threads.
Interloper wrote:If you decide to add physical technique -- throws, locks, strikes, kicks -- your internal state of being will make those physical expressions more powerful than if they were driven by conventional power sources (e.g. muscle strength/flexation; hip-driven torsion or torque and momentum to create acceleration of mass)
GaryR wrote:This is where my Bullshit flag went the rest of the way up: You seem to think that the "internal state of being" is some magical force field or power source beyond the realm of the physical world? There is simply no evidence to that effect. You said--"If you decide to add a physical technique"? Define/describe or demonstrate a non-physical technique in which you could solely use to deal with an opponent? Lin kong jin, lol?
Every move and movement you know, every output of power/force from your body that has a noticeable effect in the physical world can be measured and described by some (like Chris M) down to the molecular level. Even given your repeated lack of description of what you do-- I highly doubt there is ANYTHING you are doing that is 1) new to anyone here, or 2) can't be described, picked apart and/or replicated by numerous members of this forum.
So if you would like to prove your "[non]-conventional power sources" exist in the first place you should start another thread and provide something of substance beyond the repeated rhetoric I've heard from the Ip/is crowd in general. It would certainly be interesting to hear how you think the magic power is developed, measured, and applied--and of course your evidence for that type of power existing...and mattering.
If you think you can prove this magical non-physical technique there could be a million dollars in it for you; http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
Anyhow, you can define the "marble" in the sphere your way, and in another thread, like I said this is beyond that. Let's move on.
Best,
G
Picking things apart on the molecular level and hyper-intellectuallizing (and there is a LOT of bloviating overintellectualizing going on, on so many of these forums) will not help anyone actually develop these skills or learn how to fight with them. It's an experiential learning process.
Interloper wrote:
Okay, let me put it this way: The person with superior structure will prevail When Spheres Collide. "It" begins with being the one who can maintain unbroken intent to hold every one of the components of structure in place.
When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact.
Interloper wrote:I have no idea what you're talking about, here.
Interloper wrote:What I'm describing is that when you are working the bows of your body, and projecting outward, you are creating a sphere or "bubble" of expressed pressure around yourself that will repel force. And, if you are creating opposing spirals within yourself, you are generating internal movement, unifying your upper and lower body. When you connect with your opponent while expressing this movement within yourself, his body will circumscribe the directions those movements are taking, except bigger and as the mirror-opposite of your internal movements.
Interloper wrote:It has nothing to do with marbles spinning within spheres, and everything to do with the relationship between two human bodies when they connect, and one of those bodies has 1. superior structure and 2. superior use of spiral movement and power.
Interloper wrote:
Again, I don't know where you are coming from with marbles. Maybe I've lost mine.
Interloper wrote:By "internal state of being," I'm talking about constantly maintaining all of the physical and mental connections that keep the integrity of internal structure, and power generation, when moving and fighting. There are multiple layers of manipulation going on from within to keep that structure whole and its individual processes integrated. It takes enormous self-discipline to condition oneself this way, on top of training to fight with it.
Interloper wrote:I have seen very few who can do both, but those I've seen are phenomenally powerful and move and fight with great fluidity and constancy of structure.
Interloper wrote:
Magical? No way. It's body mechanics, and completely physical -- especially when we consider that the brain (including "mind") is part of the organic human body. Unconventional to Western athleticism's methods for power generation, but certainly not a mystery, and it's present in the INTERNAL Chinese martial arts. At least, those that have not lost it or kept it a secret for only a select few.
Interloper wrote: It's an experiential learning process. Learn how to do it first, pick it apart after. Ass backwards will do absolutely squat to further understanding of how to do, which IMO is the most important thing.
Interloper wrote:You talk about the "IP/IS crowd" like it's something divorced from what this site is all about -- the INTERNAL martial arts. IP(internal power)/IS (internal strength) is nothing more than using the body in a way less conventional than what most people are familiar with, to generate a body state and types of power manipulation and control that convey certain advantages over more familiar and conventional "external" methods.
Chris McKinley wrote:Interloper,
... Beside the fact that with all you typed, you still have not posted a single useable bit of information here, you are also talking to Gary as if he's a raw noob to all of this and has no familiarity with nor awareness of the need for internal movement and mechanics. Unfortunately, this is yet more of the same overused script we've continually heard from that small segment of the board's membership who follow Dan Harden's particular methods. That is, btw, exactly how one would rightfully define the "IP/IS crowd", because Dan Harden and his followers uniquely use that particular terminology/shorthand for what they do, along with using the term "the internals". They are hallmark phrases of that particular group of people, including yourself
...You have posted very little of what could even liberally be called insightful information into what those practices might be, and absolutely nothing (yet again) as to how to do them despite repeated requests, and also nothing that is not so generic as to be utterly indiscernible from aspects and qualities of movement and structure that have always been a part of the IMA's lexicon..
Chris McKinley wrote:This forum is for the on-topic sharing of information that is both relevant and specific. It is therefore inappropriate to lodge a wholesale criticism of a given model without being willing to offer very specific solutions in reciprocation. Simply offering up a set of ideals that are already generic to the internal martial arts most of us already practice as if they were both completely novel and completely missing from the OP's understanding does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. It is also notable that without even attempting to describe any of what you have promoted, it is impossible to determine if you yourself have any real understanding of these very same ideals. Anyone can state them, as they are simply part of the classics and songs of these arts already and such reference material is commonly available.
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