## The Combat Sphere principle

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### The Combat Sphere principle

This is a topic that is simple in one way, but also infinitely complex.

Note on learning process first--I like to compare the IMA learning process to learning and playing music. To compare it to the piano: At first the notes, scales etc. can be very technical to learn (although I could play by ear at a very young age after hearing my mother play) - but nonetheless learning the notes was technical at first. I've also drummed for a few decades, and its much like IMA, relaxed, fast, requires the stick to become a natural extension of your body capable of subtle change under speed and change. Jazz in particular I think. But, anyhow, once you can flow and do solo's and "jam" with a good jazz group, I think that's much like the learning/practice of MA.

The Combat Sphere principle:

Hand to hand combat can be likened to a collision of geometric shapes. The Sphere principle is one example of such variations on such a collision. The IMA's done well happen to make good use of the circle. Breaking it down to principle for discussion and teaching. It allows for a more universal understanding of combat, and can be applied to any practice. Simple techniques can be shown to the student as examples, depending on your teaching preference/student, you can teach technique v. principle first.

If this is old hat, great, but the devil can be in the details and subtlety in execution and practice under dynamic pressure is key to success. Additionally, since there are countless apps from this principle, surely most of you have some technique that fits the bill to some extent.

Drawing Exercise to illustrate:
(sorry, no pictures of this anywhere)

Spinal alignment/structure: Draw a square, then draw two lines going from the middle of one side to the middle of the opposing side (which will create four equal boxes in the square). Then draw a cross, with the bottom of the cross in the center of the square. The post of the cross represents the spine - So, if the the "arms" or top of the cross receives force anywhere but on the post itself--it will turn on that force vector. This represents the outside circle along the X axis (can be as big a sphere as you want). Obviously you don't want your opponent attacking at your center and you want to take/attack his while maintaining your structure/connection and ability to deliver power.

The Combat Sphere

Now draw a circle with a stick figure in it with the arms and legs pointing out at a 45% angle. draw a circle around his waist (which is more like an ellipse when drawing to appear as a circle. The the same ellipse diagonally through the stick figures waist along the lines of the opposing arm/leg, do this on both sides. Then draw one through the center - head to toe. These are the basic four lines of revolution around the sphere. They are of course seemingly infinite, I like to think of it like a huge ball of rubber bands. Its a sphere with layers of bands/circles.

Collision of Sphere's and combat applications:

When Spheres collide (or perhaps another incoming line/vector/shape), structure must be maintained while taking there's. It should be like fighting a ghost with a sledge hammer, or being sucked into a tornado and spit out (while being struck/locked/broken in the process). Another Key is continuous fluid motion and intent. Going through the opponent with strikes etc. is essential, staying in motion is more productive, and allows one to act, rather than react, thereby controlling the situation.

So besides general comments, some questions; 1) what type of methods do you have that use this principle--Can you demo on video or describe?

There is of course much more to discuss on this, hopefully others will have good insight.

Regards,

Gary
GaryR

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Wow. Really good post Gary. I tried drawing the diagrams but some of instructions are unclear. Could you be more specific about the cross in the first diagram, is it an equal armed cross or a tau cross? One the circle diagram could you be more specific with the orientation of the circles at the locations other than the waist?

I am going to have to think of this concept more before I can respond more accurately.
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DeusTrismegistus
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Sounds like the symbol for my stuff that I came up with as a similar geometric teaching / training tool.

Bottom of the page.

Thanks for the interesting post.

Regards
Chris
Last edited by middleway on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

I have always felt that once you recognize your center, it is the same sphere that extends outward, a true and tangible force.
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Wanderingdragon
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Collision of Sphere's and combat applications:

When Spheres collide (or perhaps another incoming line/vector/shape), structure must be maintained while taking there's. It should be like fighting a ghost with a sledge hammer, or being sucked into a tornado and spit out (while being struck/locked/broken in the process). Another Key is continuous fluid motion and intent. Going through the opponent with strikes etc. is essential, staying in motion is more productive, and allows one to act, rather than react, thereby controlling the situation.

So besides general comments, some questions; 1) what type of methods do you have that use this principle--Can you demo on video or describe?

What you are asking is difficult to address, because you're describing not "a principle," but the product of a complex, multi-layered body method. It is not a "thing that you do," but a way to "be." It begins with the foundation of a structured body that can receive/absorb, ground and rebound or project force simultaneously; augment that force with one's own self-generated power through creating opposing spirals that produce a dynamic tension that can be exploited in a number of ways, including to power strikes; and through winding force cross-body to power the waist, torso and upper body without sacrificing stability or creating openings for an opponent to attack. All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.

When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact. If you decide to add physical technique -- throws, locks, strikes, kicks -- your internal state of being will make those physical expressions more powerful than if they were driven by conventional power sources (e.g. muscle strength/flexation; hip-driven torsion or torque and momentum to create acceleration of mass)
Last edited by Interloper on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Interloper,

...augment that force with one's own self-generated power through creating opposing spirals that produce a dynamic tension that can be exploited in a number of ways, including to power strikes; and through winding force cross-body to power the waist, torso and upper body without sacrificing stability or creating openings for an opponent to attack. All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.

The first step toward that mastery would be even a limited description of how you recommend someone might begin to create even one of those factors. You have asserted that Gary's model is flawed in that it is not a set of behaviors but a state of being. You then describe a set of behaviors as quoted above. Now, for the sake of discussion, let's put aside the fact that Gary's model is whatever he defines it to be, flawed or not, and let's also put aside the error of claiming that it ought to be a state of being and then immediately providing examples which are all themselves behaviors. Of the behaviors you listed, you have provided no description of how any of them might be created or accomplished by Gary even if he wished to take your advice wholeheartedly and to follow your prescription for what he ought to be doing instead.

If you are going to criticize his model, and you are further going to claim that there is a specific set of behaviors he could take which would 'fix' it, you then ought to provide a description of even a single one of those behaviors so as to enable him to actually take your advice. Otherwise, your criticism has not been of any constructive value.
Chris McKinley

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

DeusTrismegistus wrote:Wow. Really good post Gary. I tried drawing the diagrams but some of instructions are unclear. Could you be more specific about the cross in the first diagram, is it an equal armed cross or a tau cross? One the circle diagram could you be more specific with the orientation of the circles at the locations other than the waist?

I am going to have to think of this concept more before I can respond more accurately.

Thanks Deus! I'll try and clarify for you, sorry for any fuzzy explanations: The cross on the first diagram is an equal armed cross. In fact that is a simplification to explain the basics of pressure on the center, etc. You could even think of the cross as having a ball bearing where the cross meets the post, so the arms of the cross can swing in any an all directions - pivoting in the center.

On the circle diagram, take a look at this--- http://www.freerandomwallpapers.com/ima ... Sphere.jpg . The diagram can partly illustrate my point, as you can see there are paths around just about every angle. Initially I was just talking about four paths --head to toe circle -(picture a saw cutting through an orange top to bottom (that line), then picture the saw cutting diagonally through, then vertically etc. The saw can conceptually cut through virtually ad infinitum slices). Also the center of the circle (and self) is the starting point for movement - thus all of the "circles" in this example will "orbit" around that point.

hope that helps,

Best,

G
GaryR

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

middleway wrote:Sounds like the symbol for my stuff that I came up with as a similar geometric teaching / training tool.

Bottom of the page.

Thanks for the interesting post.

Regards
Chris

VERY NICE!! Also somewhat similar, (wish I could draw worth a damn)--the difference being, my idea here is more limited in that it's not meant to represent really any specific step or "direction", hence no linear lines, also no linear lines because for the purposes of this principle only circular/ellipti methods are meant to be conceptualized, not everything.

Best,

Gary
GaryR

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Extend one hand out in front of you and draw a horizontal circle by only turning the waist, now extend both arms out to the side and create a vertical circle using the same method. These are fundamental basics, so basic they are seen in warmups, this is the structural influence of your sphere. The key is in creating zero gaps by way of technical skill.
The point . is absolute
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Interloper wrote:
What you are asking is difficult to address, because you're describing not "a principle," but the product of a complex, multi-layered body method. It is not a "thing that you do," but a way to "be."

Chris McKinley wrote: let's also put aside the error of claiming that it ought to be a state of being and then immediately providing examples which are all themselves behaviors.

Theories about a "way to be" is well and good, but as Chris said, you contradicted yourself. PLUS; this is not a state of being model (its my model and I'll define it how I like thanks)-- its a relational model for combat depicting it as it can be in REALITY - a collision of geometric shapes. Here the circle/sphere.

Interloper wrote:It begins with the foundation of a structured body that can ... All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.

"It" as in what you may be describing is NOT what this thread is particularly about. For this discussions it can be assumed that all of what you are describing is already intact in the person to some appreciable degree. This is what I meant when I said in the initial post : "When Spheres collide (or perhaps another incoming line/vector/shape), structure must be maintained while taking there's." All of your "begins with" items are really included in that little sentence of mine, it needed no extrapolation because this discussion is really meant to be well beyond what you are describing.

Interloper wrote:When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact.

---------

Ok, so taking this a bit off topi
c and attempting to segway back--you can think of a marble in the center of the sphere that has these qualities. That marble in the center can/will spin. The marble can spin in the dead center of the sphere (like a top in place), or can roll around in the sphere and spin. Nonetheless, the lines and circles coming out of that spinning, reaction to stimuli, body structure/movement etc. are what is in play in this thread. Learning how to dynamically use the circles within the sphere (and in relation to your opponents "sphere" (or other angle of attack) is key.

If you would like to discuss the qualities of the "marble" per se or the "state of being", that is a whole other thread or series of threads.

Interloper wrote:If you decide to add physical technique -- throws, locks, strikes, kicks -- your internal state of being will make those physical expressions more powerful than if they were driven by conventional power sources (e.g. muscle strength/flexation; hip-driven torsion or torque and momentum to create acceleration of mass)

This is where my Bullshit flag went the rest of the way up: You seem to think that the "internal state of being" is some magical force field or power source beyond the realm of the physical world? There is simply no evidence to that effect. You said--"If you decide to add a physical technique"? Define/describe or demonstrate a non-physical technique in which you could solely use to deal with an opponent? Lin kong jin, lol?

Every move and movement you know, every output of power/force from your body that has a noticeable effect in the physical world can be measured and described by some (like Chris M) down to the molecular level. Even given your repeated lack of description of what you do-- I highly doubt there is ANYTHING you are doing that is 1) new to anyone here, or 2) can't be described, picked apart and/or replicated by numerous members of this forum.

So if you would like to prove your "[non]-conventional power sources" exist in the first place you should start another thread and provide something of substance beyond the repeated rhetoric I've heard from the Ip/is crowd in general. It would certainly be interesting to hear how you think the magic power is developed, measured, and applied--and of course your evidence for that type of power existing...and mattering.

If you think you can prove this magical non-physical technique there could be a million dollars in it for you; http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Anyhow, you can define the "marble" in the sphere your way, and in another thread, like I said this is beyond that. Let's move on.

Best,

G
GaryR

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Wanderingdragon wrote:Extend one hand out in front of you and draw a horizontal circle by only turning the waist, now extend both arms out to the side and create a vertical circle using the same method. These are fundamental basics, so basic they are seen in warmups, this is the structural influence of your sphere. The key is in creating zero gaps by way of technical skill.

Excellent, great illustration and point thanks!

G
Last edited by GaryR on Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GaryR

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

GaryR wrote:
Interloper wrote:It begins with the foundation of a structured body that can ... All of this is driven by intent, the power of the mind over matter, which must be maintained. IME, that is the hardest part to master to the point of consistency and constancy.

"It" as in what you may be describing is NOT what this thread is particularly about. For this discussions it can be assumed that all of what you are describing is already intact in the person to some appreciable degree. This is what I meant when I said in the initial post : "When Spheres collide (or perhaps another incoming line/vector/shape), structure must be maintained while taking there's." All of your "begins with" items are really included in that little sentence of mine, it needed no extrapolation because this discussion is really meant to be well beyond what you are describing.

Okay, let me put it this way: The person with superior structure will prevail When Spheres Collide. "It" begins with being the one who can maintain unbroken intent to hold every one of the components of structure in place.

Interloper wrote:When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact.

---------
GaryR wrote:Ok, so taking this a bit off topic and attempting to segway back--you can think of a marble in the center of the sphere that has these qualities. That marble in the center can/will spin. The marble can spin in the dead center of the sphere (like a top in place), or can roll around in the sphere and spin. Nonetheless, the lines and circles coming out of that spinning, reaction to stimuli, body structure/movement etc. are what is in play in this thread. Learning how to dynamically use the circles within the sphere (and in relation to your opponents "sphere" (or other angle of attack) is key.

If you would like to discuss the qualities of the "marble" per se or the "state of being", that is a whole other thread or series of threads.

I have no idea what you're talking about, here. What I'm describing is that when you are working the bows of your body, and projecting outward, you are creating a sphere or "bubble" of expressed pressure around yourself that will repel force. And, if you are creating opposing spirals within yourself, you are generating internal movement, unifying your upper and lower body. When you connect with your opponent while expressing this movement within yourself, his body will circumscribe the directions those movements are taking, except bigger and as the mirror-opposite of your internal movements. It has nothing to do with marbles spinning within spheres, and everything to do with the relationship between two human bodies when they connect, and one of those bodies has 1. superior structure and 2. superior use of spiral movement and power.

Interloper wrote:If you decide to add physical technique -- throws, locks, strikes, kicks -- your internal state of being will make those physical expressions more powerful than if they were driven by conventional power sources (e.g. muscle strength/flexation; hip-driven torsion or torque and momentum to create acceleration of mass)

GaryR wrote:This is where my Bullshit flag went the rest of the way up: You seem to think that the "internal state of being" is some magical force field or power source beyond the realm of the physical world? There is simply no evidence to that effect. You said--"If you decide to add a physical technique"? Define/describe or demonstrate a non-physical technique in which you could solely use to deal with an opponent? Lin kong jin, lol?

Every move and movement you know, every output of power/force from your body that has a noticeable effect in the physical world can be measured and described by some (like Chris M) down to the molecular level. Even given your repeated lack of description of what you do-- I highly doubt there is ANYTHING you are doing that is 1) new to anyone here, or 2) can't be described, picked apart and/or replicated by numerous members of this forum.

So if you would like to prove your "[non]-conventional power sources" exist in the first place you should start another thread and provide something of substance beyond the repeated rhetoric I've heard from the Ip/is crowd in general. It would certainly be interesting to hear how you think the magic power is developed, measured, and applied--and of course your evidence for that type of power existing...and mattering.

If you think you can prove this magical non-physical technique there could be a million dollars in it for you; http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Anyhow, you can define the "marble" in the sphere your way, and in another thread, like I said this is beyond that. Let's move on.

Best,

G

Again, I don't know where you are coming from with marbles. Maybe I've lost mine.
By "internal state of being," I'm talking about constantly maintaining all of the physical and mental connections that keep the integrity of internal structure, and power generation, when moving and fighting. There are multiple layers of manipulation going on from within to keep that structure whole and its individual processes integrated. It takes enormous self-discipline to condition oneself this way, on top of training to fight with it. I have seen very few who can do both, but those I've seen are phenomenally powerful and move and fight with great fluidity and constancy of structure.

And by "physical technique," of course all movement is "physical" I think you're just nitpicking here. I mean those movements that are externally visible, specific movements for fighting -- kicks, punches, strikes, etc. -- which can be powered either through "external" means (e.g. forward momentum, twisting the hip using hip/waist and torso muscles, gravity/body drop, centripedal force through swinging the waist and legs to create pivot., etc...all to create acceleration of body mass but which do not come from the exploitation of a unified upper and lower body and whole-body power), or by "internal" means (e.g. peng, an, winding power that transfers force from the ground, the kuas, and around the mingmen to power the movement of the waist and torso -- instead of using the muscles of the waist and torso/upper body).

Magical? No way. It's body mechanics, and completely physical -- especially when we consider that the brain (including "mind") is part of the organic human body. Unconventional to Western athleticism's methods for power generation, but certainly not a mystery, and it's present in the INTERNAL Chinese martial arts. At least, those that have not lost it or kept it a secret for only a select few. It doesn't help that -- as with any discipline -- the degree to which various teachers and systems possess the skills are wildly varied, with so many having incomplete knowledge and skills. It also doesn't help that so many who do have higher levels of in-depth knowledge keep it so close to the vest like the family jewels. That's why those few who do teach openly and transparently should be sought out. Set egos aside, and go feel what's going on inside these men.

Picking things apart on the molecular level and hyper-intellectuallizing (and there is a LOT of bloviating overintellectualizing going on, on so many of these forums) will not help anyone actually develop these skills or learn how to fight with them. It's an experiential learning process. Learn how to do it first, pick it apart after. Ass backwards will do absolutely squat to further understanding of how to do, which IMO is the most important thing.

You talk about the "IP/IS crowd" like it's something divorced from what this site is all about -- the INTERNAL martial arts. IP(internal power)/IS (internal strength) is nothing more than using the body in a way less conventional than what most people are familiar with, to generate a body state and types of power manipulation and control that convey certain advantages over more familiar and conventional "external" methods.
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Picking things apart on the molecular level and hyper-intellectuallizing (and there is a LOT of bloviating overintellectualizing going on, on so many of these forums) will not help anyone actually develop these skills or learn how to fight with them. It's an experiential learning process.

Modern gibberish: Liked!
Last edited by Patrick on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Interloper,

That was a very civil response at the very least and you deserve to be commended for it. However, there are a couple of statements you've made here that are relevant to the fact that you've also ignored my own calls for specific information elsewhere. Beside the fact that with all you typed, you still have not posted a single useable bit of information here, you are also talking to Gary as if he's a raw noob to all of this and has no familiarity with nor awareness of the need for internal movement and mechanics. Unfortunately, this is yet more of the same overused script we've continually heard from that small segment of the board's membership who follow Dan Harden's particular methods. That is, btw, exactly how one would rightfully define the "IP/IS crowd", because Dan Harden and his followers uniquely use that particular terminology/shorthand for what they do, along with using the term "the internals". They are hallmark phrases of that particular group of people, including yourself.

It is true that many of the rest of us were using terms such as "internal power" and "internal strength" long before Dan Harden or any of his followers ever came on the scene. It is also true that this forum was created for the purpose of discussing the internal arts. However, as yet, we have very little idea of what that particular group is actually doing, apart from the fact that they are very careful to mention that it is not any of the typical internal arts with which the rest of the board is familiar, so it becomes difficult to discern if in fact they actually have the same or even a similar understanding of what internal power and strength actually are, as they have been understood for centuries among the traditional Chinese internal arts.

You have posted very little of what could even liberally be called insightful information into what those practices might be, and absolutely nothing (yet again) as to how to do them despite repeated requests, and also nothing that is not so generic as to be utterly indiscernible from aspects and qualities of movement and structure that have always been a part of the IMA's lexicon. Put simply, as yet, there is nothing to convince anyone that what your group is doing is in any way qualitatively different than what is already being advocated and practiced within the traditional Chinese internal martial arts. It would thus also be discourteously presumptive to discuss such aspects as if they are, in whole cloth, new and unfamiliar to the members of this board. No one would deny that the forum's membership represents a wide range of familiarity and expertise, but to treat everyone as if they had no idea themselves about these aspects and to keep repeating the mantra, even to those already at least as familiar with them as yourselves, that no one seems to have anything in terms of real skill with this material is just plain rude, purposeless and unproductive.

This forum is different than the other forums on the board in at least one important way. This forum is for the on-topic sharing of information that is both relevant and specific. It is therefore inappropriate to lodge a wholesale criticism of a given model without being willing to offer very specific solutions in reciprocation. Simply offering up a set of ideals that are already generic to the internal martial arts most of us already practice as if they were both completely novel and completely missing from the OP's understanding does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. It is also notable that without even attempting to describe any of what you have promoted, it is impossible to determine if you yourself have any real understanding of these very same ideals. Anyone can state them, as they are simply part of the classics and songs of these arts already and such reference material is commonly available.

You acknowledge that all of what you and your fellow practitioners of that particular method are doing is purely physical. Yet you seem to ignore the fact that all such movement can be fully, accurately and completely described, down to whatever level of technical detail as is required or appropriate for the discussion at the time. You provide reasoning for your disdain for such description that is ultimately a very simple case of a red herring. No one has put forth or advocated the notion that any of us ought to try to learn the internal arts by starting with internet descriptions before studying with a qualified instructor. That is a classic red herring argument. It also continues the presumption that none of us are already familiar with these ideas and that we also haven't already studied with people who are able to teach it.

This forum in particular, at least by intention, is for discussion by posters who are some of the most experienced and familiar of the entire board. As has already been demonstrated on the Mechanics of IP thread, it is occasionally useful and even necessary to delve into more technical descriptions of the variations in the mechanics of the various approaches we each have. Therefore, while it is sometimes true that, "Picking things apart on the molecular level and hyper-intellectuallizing (and there is a LOT of bloviating overintellectualizing going on, on so many of these forums) will not help anyone actually develop these skills or learn how to fight with them", it is also even more true, and in every single case, that not contributing any specific information at all will help even less.
Chris McKinley

### Re: The Combat Sphere principle

Interloper wrote:
Okay, let me put it this way: The person with superior structure will prevail When Spheres Collide. "It" begins with being the one who can maintain unbroken intent to hold every one of the components of structure in place.

When you can maintain yourself in this state, then when someone attempts to make contact with you (or you with him), what you are doing within your body will be reflected in the way their body reacts upon contact.

All other things being equal, mostly---yes. Not remotely new or exciting information. But again, you are simply off topic or are at minimum at the ground floor of it.
---------
Interloper wrote:I have no idea what you're talking about, here.

That should have been your clue to bow out of the discussion.

Interloper wrote:What I'm describing is that when you are working the bows of your body, and projecting outward, you are creating a sphere or "bubble" of expressed pressure around yourself that will repel force. And, if you are creating opposing spirals within yourself, you are generating internal movement, unifying your upper and lower body. When you connect with your opponent while expressing this movement within yourself, his body will circumscribe the directions those movements are taking, except bigger and as the mirror-opposite of your internal movements.

I can understand what you are trying to describe, and what you* are saying a "bubble" is, but it's simply not the same topic as I explained to you before.

Interloper wrote:It has nothing to do with marbles spinning within spheres, and everything to do with the relationship between two human bodies when they connect, and one of those bodies has 1. superior structure and 2. superior use of spiral movement and power.

You just admitted you have "no idea" what I am talking about. So how would you know what "it" has to do with? You don't.

Obviously when sphere's collide the first issue to hit the mind is structure, which is why I said --"When Spheres collide (or perhaps another incoming line/vector/shape), structure must be maintained while taking there's". This essentially glossed over what you attempted so inadequately to delineate out--------Note for your future side-tracks: If you want to vague up your second prong to the success of "it" even more,... I would eliminate "spiral" from your statement and say simply--"superior use of movement and power", that way when you claim "it" has everything to do with those two steps, you are not too specific. I mean, heck after the entire structure and bio-mechanics issue, what's left after movement and power? Not much, vaguness...check.

Interloper wrote:
Again, I don't know where you are coming from with marbles. Maybe I've lost mine.

Haha, we all have in some respect, hell we are on all RSF! But when I don't know what someone is talking about, that is usually when I ask questions, contribute something of substance on topic, and/or at the very least be silent and listen and learn.

Interloper wrote:By "internal state of being," I'm talking about constantly maintaining all of the physical and mental connections that keep the integrity of internal structure, and power generation, when moving and fighting. There are multiple layers of manipulation going on from within to keep that structure whole and its individual processes integrated. It takes enormous self-discipline to condition oneself this way, on top of training to fight with it.

I would agree that is a good starting point for a discussion on the "internal state of being", again, its just off topic. Tree's meet Forest... Forest, meet Tree's.

Interloper wrote:I have seen very few who can do both, but those I've seen are phenomenally powerful and move and fight with great fluidity and constancy of structure.

That's great you have been fortunate enough to have seen that, so have I, and-- I can actually do it (and teach it). I'm not the best, or flawless (I can list many)-- and others here can do it as well--As Chris mentioned, "This forum in particular, at least by intention, is for discussion by posters who are some of the most experienced and familiar of the entire board".

Interloper wrote:
Magical? No way. It's body mechanics, and completely physical -- especially when we consider that the brain (including "mind") is part of the organic human body. Unconventional to Western athleticism's methods for power generation, but certainly not a mystery, and it's present in the INTERNAL Chinese martial arts. At least, those that have not lost it or kept it a secret for only a select few.

Yup, I agree that it is all physical/mental and body mechanics!! Welcome to my mantra from over a decade ago...and again-- welcome to the beginning of another discussion.

Interloper wrote: It's an experiential learning process. Learn how to do it first, pick it apart after. Ass backwards will do absolutely squat to further understanding of how to do, which IMO is the most important thing.

Your statement is ASSuming that I, (and/or many here) don't already know how to do it. Although one's learning is never complete---many of us are now in the "experimental teaching process", "experimental evolution process", and/or "backwards engineering" process etc.

Interloper wrote:You talk about the "IP/IS crowd" like it's something divorced from what this site is all about -- the INTERNAL martial arts. IP(internal power)/IS (internal strength) is nothing more than using the body in a way less conventional than what most people are familiar with, to generate a body state and types of power manipulation and control that convey certain advantages over more familiar and conventional "external" methods.

Chris had some great comments on the "IP/IS crowd" that are worth repeating:

Chris McKinley wrote:Interloper,
... Beside the fact that with all you typed, you still have not posted a single useable bit of information here, you are also talking to Gary as if he's a raw noob to all of this and has no familiarity with nor awareness of the need for internal movement and mechanics. Unfortunately, this is yet more of the same overused script we've continually heard from that small segment of the board's membership who follow Dan Harden's particular methods. That is, btw, exactly how one would rightfully define the "IP/IS crowd", because Dan Harden and his followers uniquely use that particular terminology/shorthand for what they do, along with using the term "the internals". They are hallmark phrases of that particular group of people, including yourself

...You have posted very little of what could even liberally be called insightful information into what those practices might be, and absolutely nothing (yet again) as to how to do them despite repeated requests, and also nothing that is not so generic as to be utterly indiscernible from aspects and qualities of movement and structure that have always been a part of the IMA's lexicon..

Chris McKinley wrote:This forum is for the on-topic sharing of information that is both relevant and specific. It is therefore inappropriate to lodge a wholesale criticism of a given model without being willing to offer very specific solutions in reciprocation. Simply offering up a set of ideals that are already generic to the internal martial arts most of us already practice as if they were both completely novel and completely missing from the OP's understanding does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. It is also notable that without even attempting to describe any of what you have promoted, it is impossible to determine if you yourself have any real understanding of these very same ideals. Anyone can state them, as they are simply part of the classics and songs of these arts already and such reference material is commonly available.

Thanks Chris, I couldn't have put it better.

I'm sorry if I come across harsh Interloper, I'm a nice guy in person-- I promise . Its just that---to put it less eloquently than Chris did --nothing "grinds my gears" (family guy ref.) more than someone who provides only vague rhetoric fervently, and not evidence; descriptions, demonstrations, or at the very least constructive feedback (positive or negative).

You have contributed "very little of what could even liberally be called insightful information", to my thread so please either do so, or start your own on the "internal state of being" or something. At this stage, your education is likely best segmented in that regard anyhow. Plus, honestly Interloper, from what I've read from you and the ip/is crowd--this thread may be out of your depth anyhoo, (and it was just getting started).

For some levity and to illustrate my family guy reference for those of you who don't know the ref -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkK0z2ALU_4

Now...back to the regularly scheduled topic

best,

G
Last edited by GaryR on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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