intent for creating structure and power

[Chris McKinley]

Iskendar,

Thank you for providing at least a little bit of actual specific information about the IP/IS approach as you understand it (Tom mentioned that Interloper's version may be different). Your offering of course puts the lie to the claim from some in that group that none of it can be described in text. We already knew better, and it's nice to see someone provide something specific for discussion.

I mean, what is not clear about this that you guys need to be ganging up on her like this? Y'all know what intent is (or should know anyway)

That's been exactly the problem, as I have already made explicitly clear. Everything she had provided was so generic to what all of us are already doing that it was of no real value in explaining how what she does is different. It also had absolutely no connection at all to how any of the methods she refers to obliquely as being the answer are actually done. What she had given could simply have been a cut n' paste from a translation of the IMA classics. Since we are so carefully told that what that group is doing, including what Interloper is doing, is not simply traditional CIMA, it is of interest exactly how they are different, especially given the repeated characterizations of it being superior to what all of us as CIMA practitioners are already doing.

It's also important to note that Interloper has been asked to respond in more than just this thread. She has also ignored such requests in The lightest touch thread and The Combat Sphere principle threads. Ignoring such requests, especially after giving criticism of the understanding of other posters within each of those threads, was just plain rude by any measure.

It's been said before Dan uses fascia theory, so you know which those connections are as well: just read Myers.

I've already explained to you in the Fascia Model of IP thread in the main forum that I've done way more than "just read Myers". It's doubtful any of the practitioners of the Dan method have delved into the topic to anywhere near the degree I have, so familiarity with the issue itself is not relevant to this discussion, at least in my case.

WTF do you want more? You want drills? You want to be taught over the internet? Or do you just want the chance to cut someone up?

This is just more red herring. We've already explained exactly what we would like to see and exactly why. And now, thanks to you, we may be starting to get it for the first time.

P.S. I seriously do resent the cult remark. If there's any milieu that's cultish, it's the traditional martial arts scene. With Dan, you walk through the door and it's work work work from the get go, with palpable results and clearly laid out theory. No 'do the form and it will come in 10 years', no groveling at sifu's feet to get invited to become tudi and can get the real secrets, no 'this is just taught to one or two people', no ling kong jin, grain paths or any other bullshit. Just hard work, results and a hell of a lot of laughter.

It's actually good to see a legitimate advocacy of Dan's work and of his teaching style brought up in this way by someone who has actually trained with him. Regardless of his online behavior or the secretive nature of the practitioners, it's at least good to know that they are working their material in a no BS way. Probably getting some damn good results because of it, too. Good on them for that at least.

It would indeed be nice to have discussions like that without the <silly voice>"I demand an explanation!"</silly voice> crap.

It would be even nicer to be able to have our discussions on RSF without the <condescending voice>"None of you understand what the real internal is! When touching hands none of you or your teachers had anything! My stuff is the greatest but it can't be described so you'll have to come see me for $175 a session to find out!"</condescending voice> crap. Perhaps now, with you leading the way, we may finally be able to have that discussion, and to have it without any crap from anybody.

Note that this is not just Dan stuff, got a lot if this out of the Aunkai work, and I was probably already doing this before that, only paid much less attention to it back then. After all, it is pretty much IMA 101.

Yes indeed, it is. What you are offering thus far of the method as you understand it is a description of the tensegrity matrix as applied to IMA fighting structure. This is great stuff but it's not anything some of us haven't been doing every time we train for years and years. That's okay, though....even if it turns out that there's absolutely nothing new or different about the training methods your group uses, it's still worth talking about if you're getting some good results from it.

IMO Intent refers to the process that links thought and action. It can be conscious or unconscious but it is not indecisive. It is the process linking the mind to body, that pathway in the single system.

Damn, I wish I had come up with that...

[quote]

There already is a name for that process....it's called neuromotor physiology. Xin, yi, shen, and other colloquial folkloric Chinese terms aside, there's already a good deal of knowledge about this process for those who wish to go and find it. If we wish to discuss the actual process, then spending time trying to determine which of the colloquial folkloric terms is closest to it is a distracting waste of time for anything other than purely cultural and academic purposes. Going to the actual process itself instead of dealing in cultural metaphors that loosely but incompletely describe it is the only way to deduce and extract further training methods which are in accord with what actually happens, and therefore represent a real innovation or improvement in the training.

Hopefully this thread will represent the first guarded steps down that path for the collective readers of RSF as a group. Thank you again, Iskendar, for making that a possibility.

[D_Glenn]

Ok, I've read Interloper's post on the "lightest touch" thread (lamest topic ever BTW, I mean, seriously? you gonna get this from a bunch of martial artists?) three or four times now, and I cannot fathom what the fuss is about. What's to discuss? To recapitulate:

Intent, as such, is critical to internal body method for creating and maintaining all of the connections, movements and dynamic tensions/opposing forces that we exploit to create a unified structure, to absorb and neutralize force, and to generate and express force. We learn to wilfully and consciously use intent to establish a complex web of manipulations, from pressurizing-depressurizing the thoracic and abdominal body cavities to bowing the curves of the spine, elbows and knees and willing the transfer of kinetic energy from the ground and across the kuas and lower back, in a constant and fluid process.

I mean, what is not clear about this that you guys need to be ganging up on her like this? Y'all know what intent is (or should know anyway), she gives a list of things you can send that intent towards, either isolated in training, or all at once in use.

+1

I didn't feel the need for her to elaborate as it all makes sense to me.

So the question might be "Why are so many IMA people not understanding intent?"

The first thing is:

Intent as defined in English and the Chinese term "Yi" are not necessarily the exact same thing.

So just talking about 'Yi' and some things I've been taught, learned over the years, and how we practice and develop 'yi'.

The 'Yi' is a part of our Shen or spirit and you can see the spirit of living things in their eyes. So 'Yi' is intrinsically connected to our eyes. Where we look is where our 'Yi' goes. We can control to what degree or percentage though.

八卦转掌换式眼法口诀

两眼圆睁六路观，四面八方看周全。双眼随手如闪电，瞻前顾后左右看
头顶端正三面观，旋转躲闪旋风般。观定对方换法变，随机应变发换先。
当场动手眼神先，乘虚攻击莫迟延。一举一动双眼看，全在双睛神一团
对方变换看胯肩，肩胯齐动手脚添。动手输招不输眼，手眼身法眼当先
眼随心变换随眼，虚实进退眼先观。

Bagua's turning palms, changing, methods of using the eyes.

Both eyes need to be open to the six pathways in front of you, attentively observe in all directions. Both eyes need to follow the hands like following a glimpse of lightning, gaze at the front hand, be mindful of the back hand, guard against the left and the right. The head is held upright to observe the 3 sides, spin and turn, dodge like a whirlwind. Watch for and determine the opponents changes in order to transform them. Follow the source, adapt to their change, attack (fa) and transform it before it arrives. At that time show intent with the eyes as the hands strike and take advantage of their momentary lapse, attack without delay. In one move you will have used one to transform both of theirs as they stand by passively with their eyes fixated on your one hand. Observe the opponents hips and shoulders to see their changes. The shoulders and hips move simultaneously with the movement of the limbs. Use the touching [crossing] of the hands to feel their intentions not their eyes. Hand, eye, body movement the eyes move first. The eyes follow the heart, the changes follow the eyes. To know whether to advance or retreat first observe with the eyes.

The Shen is made up of 5 parts: Xin (heart-mind/consciousness), Yi (intent/subconscious), Zhi (willpower), Hun (imagination), and Po (instincts).

Our eyes follow our Xin, our Yi follows the eyes, our movements (changes) follow the Yi, supported by our Zhi, and can be influenced by the hun and po.

The Hun/imagination can play some small part in solo practice for developing certain qualities but should always be kept in check.

We develop our Yi and subsequently all the shens, in our solo practices.

In standing practice this is developed by gazing at the front hand, being mindful of our back hand and on Qihai point (front of the dantian). You can then develop the structure by continually moving your mind all around the inside of your body doing checks- chin tucked, neck raised, shoulders dropped, front knee solid, back knee empty, waist twisting, hip held back... etc.

In drilling and form practices this is developed by gazing at the front hand and being mindful of our back hand. In between strikes, when in an empty stance, with one leg weighted, the mind is on Qihai point (front of the dantian) while switching our gaze from the front to the back hand.

How you look with your eyes is also important - you want to be slightly squinting like you're observing something, feeling like you're drawing back in through your eyes. Not opening or bulging your eyes like trying to read something in dim light.

In Baguazhang we seek to keep our own intent inside our body so we limit our gaze to the tips of our fingers and have a saying "There are many mistakes to be made while practicing Yin style Bagua but the biggest mistake of all is to not look at our own hands."
This is done in solo practice. "You need to be very strict in your practice, so that you don't have to be strict when fighting."

In the Xingyiquan I'd studied we were taught to gaze to a spot 2 or 3 feet in front of your hand and be mindful of the hands and dantian. This is one of the differences between the 2 arts. Xingyi doesn't care if the opponent feels or listens to his 'Yi' as he's going to mow over him whether he's standing in place or already back-peddling.

It's also the only overt feelings of another person's 'Yi' that I've experienced. A xingyi guy who'd spent years practicing his 'Yi' to be in the 'Xing' shape of a drill makes for the feeling a powerful drill bit turning your whole body just from that one point of contact with his fist.

Being on the receiving end of Baguazhang attacks and throws you don't know wtf happened or how you ended up on the ground as he's using 'Yi' to trick you in order to make "The obvious hand is not the real attack, it's the hidden hand that hits."



.

[Bao]

Personally, I think that's xin rather than yi. Though I may very well be wrong there, the xin leads yi bit is something I haven't paid all that much attention to, so I may very well be clueless there.

Xin... remember that what people meant with xin in old China was not "heart" per say. "Xin" is what they used for "mind".

I did never say what I spoke about WAS "YI" or intent. I spoke about what you need FIRST. Wuxin, or the state of Wuji is what you need first, before you can have real intent. Remember that thinking is not the same as doing. We must clear away feelings and thoughts before we can control our actions. Intent is to connect a very strong idea with actual action/doing. To be able to focus correctly and be calm, is the yin part of focus. Intent is the yang part.

Thoughts and emotions is in conflict with our actions.

"How can we learn to know ourselves? Never by reflection, but by action. "
Goethe

"There are three principles in a man’s being and life, the principle of thought, the principle of speech, and the principle of action. The origin of all conflict between me and my fellow men is that I do not say what I mean and that I do not do what I say."
Martin Buber

"When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill. If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous. If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets, he is out of his mind.
His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares, he thinks more of winning than of shooting, and the need to win drains him of power."
Chuang Tzu

Violence, thoughts, hopes, smells... well everything affect our brains emotions and thoughts. We need to achieve this calmness which is very hard to achieve. Then, and only then our intent can be free, sharp and without interference from outer disturbance.

IMO, intent is like drawing a bow and release it. It's like using sharpness of focus, like operating with a scalpel. Intent is not only focus, but a certain quality of focus that let you control your actions.

Sadly, people forget that its very easy to keep intent, or believing that you actually understand intent, when practicing an empty hand form or drill like the xingy five fists. But as soon you step out from your safe environment, you still need to be able to control yourself. Your "Intent" is nothing if you are not able to carry your skill out from your bedroom or your kwoon into the midst of fire, into actual fighting. To be able to do this, you need the both sides of the coin. It's not a skill easy to achieve. But when you practice alone, it's extremely easy to fool yourself that you understand more than you actually do.

[Ron Panunto]

Well, imagining is what you do, but yeah, I do mean intent. Pretty loaded term, so I tried sticking to plain English It's not just imagination though, imagine a rope duck-taped to your chest being pulled forward. Imagine what that does to your body, and let it happen. Imagine a continuum of that along your front. Now you're probably starting to fall forward, so imagine the same feeling along the back balancing it out. Repeat along the other two axes, and your body'll start to feel quite inflated/expanding, making you a lot more solid and stable, without much localized flexing.
Note that this is not just Dan stuff, got a lot if this out of the Aunkai work, and I was probably already doing this before that, only paid much less attention to it back then. After all, it is pretty much IMA 101.

I tried this and all I could think about was the pain of pulling that duct tape off of my chest!

[I-mon]

Ok I'll jump on this one again.

Certain muscle groups in the body are supposed to switch on, "fire", "engage", or otherwise contract in preparation for movement. These muscle groups include the transverse abdominis ("TA", the deepest abdominal muscles), pelvic floor, multifidi (deepest spinal muscles), the suboccipital muscles (deepest muscle group where the spine meets the skull), and the deepest muscles of the hips.

In healthy people with good natural movement patterns (ie just about nobody in our modern urban societies) these muscle groups all activate in preparation for movement as soon as we intend to move. The reason they do this is that they are the primary stabilizers of our bodies. When they don't contract in this way any forces coming through our body from the ground gets lost or stuck: we push off one foot and if the hip is unstable the pelvis rocks out of alignment, if TA isn't active then the pelvis and ribs wobble around, if multifidus isn't active all the way up the spine then wherever it is deficient those vertebral segments will wobble out of alignment, etc.

In other words: these are the muscle groups responsible for whole body connection, and surprise surprise they just happen to be, literally, physically, the deepest, most internal muscles in our bodies. [BOLD TYPE]

So, the deep stabilizing muscles responsible for whole body connection are supposed to fire in preparation for movement as soon as we have the intent (conscious or not) to move.

And how do we train, or re-train, these muscle groups?
With slow, controlled movement and focused attention on the sequence of muscle activation and joint stability from stillness, before we move, when we intend to move, and then as we move.

"Yi" means both "intention" and "attention", by the way.

AN EXAMPLE:

Take the act of standing upright and then slowly raising one foot off the ground (a basic but highly functional movement): First we stand still with our weight on both feet, then, when we have the intention to move, we consciously stabilize the standing foot, the ankle, the knee, the hip, the pelvis, the lumbar spine, the ribcage and thoracic spine, the neck, and the head, so that all of these areas is "relaxed" but is stabilized such that they will not move, in preparation for the movement of the other leg. For the purpose of the exercise this stability has to be consciously maintained through focused attention through every millimeter of the movement, otherwise the structure will be broken and there will be all sorts of wobbles taking place at the foot, ankle, knee, hip, pelvis, all over the spine, ribs, and head.

This is training of the nervous system! Focused attention is what changes the brain, giving us ever-more awareness of the parts of the body where we direct it, activating the maps of body position in our sensory cortex, body movement in our motor cortex, stability and postural muscle tone and relation to gravity in our cerebellum, and preparation for movement in the premotor cortex. You don't have to remember the names and parts of the brain if they still scare you, but you can remember that all of these (sensing, movement, stability, preparation for movement) are functions of the brain and nervous system (which tell the muscles what to do) and are therefore going to be trained most effectively through focused attention (which drives neuroplasticity) rather than mindless repetition of movements (which will exercise and build muscles).

So we deliberately use the "attention" and "intention" (Yi) in training, to improve whole body connection (Jin). And the result of this training? Those deepest internal muscles come back online to function as they should: switching on and providing stability and whole body connection unconsciously in preparation for all movement, whenever we have the intent to move.

Again, see this thread: http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16359&start=15

[Chris McKinley]

Beautiful post, I-mon! This is exactly what I was describing when I posted my method over in your Absolutely essential knowledge thread, and is why I haven't posted anything else specifically in this thread. The distilled admonition I gave to practice everything as slowly, as relaxed and as perfectly as possible automatically builds in the training of optimal neuromotor synchronization.

[Ian]

Simon! Please never stop posting! I learn a lot from reading your stuff.

Also you, Chris M.

And props to Chris D. Thanks for giving away so much awesome material on your blog.

[DeusTrismegistus]

in·ten·tion
   [in-ten-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.
2.
the end or object intended; purpose.
3.
intentions,
a.
purpose or attitude toward the effect of one's actions or conduct: a bungler with good intentions.
b.
purpose or attitude with respect to marriage: Our friends are beginning to ask what our intentions are.
4.
the act or fact of intending.

That is from dictionary.com. What I notice is that the feeling of intent as we use it in IMA is not one of the standard definitions. We sometimes broadly talk of intent. Like when you sense someone's intent to cause harm. That is a sensing of a purpose though. When we are discussing intent as in the yi leads the qi it is something different IMO. I think awareness is a better word for yi in english. When we focus on the leading hand like DGlenn mentioned earlier, we are directing our awareness to the hand in question. Once you learn how to do this with looking directly at the hand you can then learn to do it without looking directly at the hand.

When we put our awareness in various parts of our body we are able to feel what is going on. We are able to feel whether we are aligned properly in the bones, if the muscles are tense, or if inappropriate muscles are activating. How can we learn to sink and open the hips if we cannot feel our hips? When we put our awareness into an area and we know some kind of guideline for that area, such as raise the crown, we can then attempt to subjectively feel that sensation. Which causes a structural change. Ideally when we are correctly utilizing one of the areas that are commonly talked about we will notice an improvement in our ability to move, respond, create power, redirect or absorb force, etc. If we do not have a specific guideline we can still improve our structure through intuition and experience.

Now earlier someone mentioned that when we have the intent to move we activate the deep muscles of the body. I think this is slightly different than what I was discussing above but IMO it relates to peng jin. I have noticed personally that it is easier at times to react to something unexpected if you are already in motion. This is because the deep muscles are already activated and the body can quickly change. If you are still and without the intent to move, then it takes a split second to activate those deep muscles and the reaction is slower. When you have the expansive energy of peng jin you are activating those deep muscles in preparation for movement, but you haven't really decided on how to move yet. I think of it like priming an engine.

[DeusTrismegistus]

hi

I'd like to ask the the opposite, what happens if you don;t have any intent.. i often find myself zombie walking around when i am trying to solve a technical / scientific type problem.. more often than not i'll end up crashing into a door or someone and they usually get quite battered... no intent of walkng, mind completely focussed on something else and yet i've flattened two guys who were bigger than me...

so how would that fit in with with the premise that intent is the key factor?

thanks

Yusuf

I think this is important and worth more discussion than it has generated. I have experienced the same thing numerous times. I once walked into a 2x4 that was laying across a cooler and sent it flying and didn't even know I did it until someone asked me if that hurt and I had no idea what they were talking about.

It has been my experience that we generate the most power when we are not trying to hit or strike or move an external object. I have begun trying to think of it in different terms. "I am going to move my fist from point A to point B and if there happens to be something in my way I don't care." In other words the strike, hit, throw, etc becomes incidental to the pure act of moving. One way of practicing this is to get in front of a heavy bag (OMG he said use a heavy bag for training IMA, blaspemer!). Get yourself at a distance so that the heavy bag is just barely out of range, like a centimeter. Close your eyes and relax and throw a few punches. Focus on the feeling of that punch with no resistance. After 3-5 punches that are just short of the bag, take a short step in with your eyes still closed, and throw the punch. You want to try to have the exact same feeling when you hit the bag as when you were missing the bag.

I will add the caveat that while I believe what I described above is generally true I also think it is an intermediary stage. Once the feeling is well developed I think the next step is to reintegrate the intent while maintaining the above described feeling. Alas that is above my level though.

[Chris McKinley]

It has been my experience that we generate the most power when we are not trying to hit or strike or move an external object. I have begun trying to think of it in different terms. "I am going to move my fist from point A to point B and if there happens to be something in my way I don't care." In other words the strike, hit, throw, etc becomes incidental to the pure act of moving.

This gets to the classic admonition to train solo as if an opponent were always there, and then fight as if he weren't and as if you were only doing the form. One of the important things about "the pure act of moving" is that it typically doesn't involve negative emotions like fear nor the hesitation or resistance in movement that come with them. The movement is therefore generally congruent, efficiently relaxed or "sung", and contains a similar follow-through to that which we see in so-called "dead" or "deadweight" strikes.

As it relates to actual striking practice, I have taught my students for many years a very effective progression that starts with exactly what you describe, Deus. Eventually, I have them hitting the heavy bag with full power at every range and with loose not clenched fists. That also progresses to strikes with open hands, forearms, and elbows. In another similar training concept, when I'm teaching the Swimming Dragon sector of material from Baguazhang, the movement is dominated by ellipses of various sizes and shapes, and is often characterized by very loose movement. One of the very real and frequent concerns is the tendency to hit your training partner with what feels to you like light contact, but which can be very painful and even damaging to your opponent. This risk is due to exactly the same kind of relaxed momentum-filled follow-through that you were describing in knocking the 2x4 out of the way.

[Bao]

It has been my experience that we generate the most power when we are not trying to hit or strike or move an external object.

That is the same reason why I believe that we should not "think" yi or focus on it. That will lock your mind just as thinking "hit hard" will lock up the movements of your body.

But if you want to generate power even when you are relaxed, you still need to support your fist with structure and balance.

So we should practice how to be able - to relax, keeping our structure and balance, as well as being calm - in every possible situation we can imagine.

If we focus on maintaining the integrity of both body and mind, "Yi" or intent will be there automatically.

Like Xingyi for example. Xingyi means "shape of mind" or "forming intent". In Xingyi, we are taught to keep an empty mind and only focus on the "idea" of one the five fists. Maybe we let our eyes keep a certain "stare". But we should never think "hit hard", we only use one of the movements we have practiced. We actually dont need to "think" what movement to be used. If we are calm and focused, it will happen automatically. Why? Because the idea is allready there. The mind is shaped by the yi.

So if we can use, or "shape" the mind this way, the Yi will automatically help us to "create structure and power".

[Interloper]

Bao wrote:
----
"It has been my experience that we generate the most power when we are not trying to hit or strike or move an external object."
That is the same reason why I believe that we should not "think" yi or focus on it. That will lock your mind just as thinking "hit hard" will lock up the movements of your body.
---

Right. It has to eventually become second nature. But when first learning how to exploit intent, we have to be conscious of what we are doing, just as in any other discipline, such as learning to read, learning to drive a car with a manual transmission, and so on. Eventually, the process of focusing and firing intent becomes more fluid, and does not require direct, painstaking awareness ("I will now switch on my intent. I will pull an imaginary rope...") to activate and maintain. It gets tucked away in its appropriate niche, so we can get on with "just moving" with it.
That doesn't mean that we are not still mindful, IMO. Part of our brain is certainly aware of what it is doing with intent, and is always being willful when we are exploiting intent; it's just not the verbal, recognizably cognitive part of our brain that adds another obstacle to action and so easily makes us freeze up when it is talking to itself.

[Chris McKinley]

Interloper,

Thank you very much for your contribution. The example of learning to drive a manual transmission car was especially applicable here, IMO. If/when we pursue this course of discussion just a bit further, I've got something to add to it. I'll provide it either way, but it'll make more sense with a few more similar examples.

[cloudz]

Reminds me of this quote
"practice is the best of all instructors"

Publilius Syrus

[Chris McKinley]

You're gonna love my new thread then, George.