Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Ben on Wed May 16, 2012 2:02 pm

I did actually think of a question...Its has 2 parts.

First Part: Do you agree with the idea that experience/training changes perception. For example, would a pro baseball player perceive a 100 MPH fastball the same way a normal person would perceive an 80 MPH pitch? Or would a pro boxer perceive their opponents punches to be slower than what the average Joe in the crowd sees? I suppose what would actually be happening is that the training/experience that they have enables them to react quicker which would make them perceive things as being slower.

Second part: If you agree with the first part do you the the myelination process that you have been discussing is responsible?
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed May 16, 2012 4:06 pm

Ben,

Do you agree with the idea that experience/training changes perception. For example, would a pro baseball player perceive a 100 MPH fastball the same way a normal person would perceive an 80 MPH pitch? Or would a pro boxer perceive their opponents punches to be slower than what the average Joe in the crowd sees? I suppose what would actually be happening is that the training/experience that they have enables them to react quicker which would make them perceive things as being slower.


You're talking time perception specifically, and my answer is a resounding "Yes". I've written a few threads about some of my NLP research into hypnotic time dilation over the years. It is an important part of some of the work I've done for my top-shelf clientele.

If you agree with the first part do you the the myelination process that you have been discussing is responsible?


Very definitely "No". This really has almost nothing to do with the myelination process that this thread covers. It has to do with visual and cognitive perceptual speed. It is trainable, it happens on its own to a certain degree, but can be catalyzed further if you know what you're doing. The process falls outside of the scope of this discussion, however.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby BAI HE on Wed May 16, 2012 7:10 pm

Very nicely done Chris. I'm five years removed from IMA practice, but as a current student of Anatomy and Physiology, I can honestly say, most "physiological" IMA theory holds up and I think what you've set forth is something that easily absorbed for Western style thinking. Painstakingly laid out and something to dwell upon.
Very chewy stuff. And thanks, BH.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed May 16, 2012 9:00 pm

Thanks, Pete. If'n ya want to play catch up and get back in the game, this information could prove very valuable to you. I hope you can try it out at some point. Anyway, glad you're back.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby BAI HE on Thu May 17, 2012 8:01 am

Thanks Chris. I think I'll be getting back into some MA or at least practicing. Lately I've been doing some 5 elements and some
Shotokan Kata.... WANKAN!
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Muad'dib on Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:43 am

The Talent Code.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby kreese on Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Also eat enough fats, lecithin, phosphytidal st....forget, lecithin will do it. Supposed to be nootropic.

Whatup Pete! :)
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:15 pm

Daniel,

See also this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16417&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45

where I referenced Coyle's book, the discussion of which kickstarted this thread.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby I-mon on Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:56 pm

I'm about 3 chapters into The Talent Code. It's good!
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:36 pm

Just finished reading The Talent Code. Very interesting and it has me thinking.

At one part in the book he is discussing how the violin teachers have a pretty much opposite approach to the soccer coaches. The violin teachers talk a lot giving adjustments and making other points, while the soccer coaches he references sit back and watch and rarely speak. He says both approaches are matched for the activity to increase myelination. (For more details read the book :) )

Now with MA and IMA in particular we often need very precise movements similar to the violin player. But our context is in an activity which is inherently chaotic. The taiji approach is traditionally like the tennis coach who would not allow any student to compete in a tournament until after 3 years of practice. She has produced multiple top 10 players and as she said "technique is everything!" Yet the soccer parts talk about the game futsol which is played indoors on a much smaller field with a ball half the size and twice the weight of a soccer ball. Apparently the average player touches the ball 6 times as often during futsol as during a soccer game. Which equates to more myelination.

He also discusses how the soccer guy will have a huge network of possible movements that are well mylinated while the violinist will have fewer possibilities but they will be highly refined because being a world class violinist requires extreme precision.

Now in IMA we have a need for precision with certain maneuvers and a gargantuan network of possible movements to react to practically infinite variations and circumstances. So it would make sense to have both practice aimed at refining techniques to a high level of precision and practice that maximizes the time spent using those techniques.

The key with the futsol was that the game is very unforgiving, if you mess up, you lose the ball. If you pull off your technique, you make a great play. Sparring and fighting has a similar level of unforgivingness. If you mess up, you get punched, kicked, thrown or locked. If you do well you avoid the bad stuff and hopefully get to dish some out. We also have the same problem of training fighter pilots though. How do you train so as to avoid injury or death? Death would obviously be more important back in the day when hand to hand weapons were trained much more vigorously.

The answer is you make it safe. We do that by slowing it down and controlling the contact. We only hit as hard as the other person can take without being injured, and we only go that hard every so often. By slowing it down we get to spend lots of time in the moment. The problem becomes one of imparting urgency because with light contact it can be easy to ignore mistakes instead of focusing on eliminating them. This is where upping the intensity is helpful because it makes the mistakes much more painful :)

When sparring slow you can also focus on your technique and pay attention to detail. How you actually are doing something and find the reasons it doesn't work. The real detail training happens with solo work though. This is where the forms come in. The forms allow you to practice a flowing sequence of combat movements while being able to focus on the technique exclusively. All that technique training though won't help a bit if you don't try to use it while sparring, whether you go fast or slow. If you do your forms one way and your sparring a completely different way, then you are wasting your time. Your time would be better spend solo practicing the same way you spar.

Just kind of thinking on paper.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby kreese on Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:12 pm

That book appears to mention nutrition as well. I think this is the essential Yin part of training. Also, methods for how to correctly open and close practice to maximize the mental training, and any visualizations or meditation work one can do to enhance the myelination.

I assume proper rest, including periods of LITTLE TO NO THINKING or VISUAL OVERSTIMULATION, and plenty of protein to support enzymes, hormones, other systems involve in this process.

Any research on nutrition and myelination?

Chris, how do myelination and neurogenesis (I think, growing new neurons) interact, if at all? Implications for training?
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby yeniseri on Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:40 am

Great work but you guys are making CMA into rocket science!
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:35 pm

Sorry gents, I've been mostly away for a bit and hadn't noticed any action on the thread. I've got a doc appointment this afternoon, but I'll get back to you as soon as I get home.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:26 am

Deus,

Very interesting questions regarding the soccer vs. violin style of practice and myelination needs. In my own work, I've dealt with all possible points along that spectrum, so I'll provide some of the insights I've gained.

He also discusses how the soccer guy will have a huge network of possible movements that are well mylinated while the violinist will have fewer possibilities but they will be highly refined because being a world class violinist requires extreme precision.


Yes, and in order to understand what our needs are, we must first determine what our primary training objectives are, which is why I'm always on about that so much as being vital right from the very beginning of training. There is no such thing as "the" needs of the IMA practitioner. In this sense, his needs are no different than any other stylist's. It all depends on what he is training his martial art to be able to do.

Now in IMA we have a need for precision with certain maneuvers and a gargantuan network of possible movements to react to practically infinite variations and circumstances. So it would make sense to have both practice aimed at refining techniques to a high level of precision and practice that maximizes the time spent using those techniques.


Why, yes indeed. And you have just demonstrated an elegant use of reason to jump right to the answer. I have for many years advocated a 'many pieces to the total training pie' approach, and this is exactly why. It's also one of the key reasons why the whole 'ten years before learning to fight' model is not only unnecessary, it doesn't even make sense in terms of the neurophysiological reality involved.

Let's take a look at it. For simplicity's sake, let's call the work we do in that first ten years the "precision" work. Let's call the work done to develop actual combat skills the "combat" work. The precision work requires the kind of refined and extremely targeted practice that the violinists use. Toeing in from the gua instead of the knee in koubu, or pouring the weight distribution from one leg to the other instead of stepping it there. Adjusting muscular tension to arrive at 'sung'. Using the deep spinal muscles to generate spinal whip instead of the abs and erectors. These kinds of things.

In contrast, the combat work requires the kind of non-linear, random access broad networks of associations and related movement patterns that the futsol players use. The parameters for what constitutes "proper" movement is ever-changing, with a huge volume of relevant stimuli/information incoming on a continuous real-time basis. The myelination, and just as importantly, the associated engrams for each type of practice are very different. In fact, they do not exist along the same spectrum of training development at all, but are indeed separate skill sets entirely.

As a result, there is absolutely no need and therefore no reason for their respective development to occur sequentially the way they would in the 10-yrs before fighting model. Not only can they occur simultaneously without any disruptive or inhibiting influence on the other, they can actually produce a synesthetic and mutually beneficial development through what used to be called "dual encoding" in the field but is now more accurately referred to as multilinear access neuroassociations. IOW, in some cases, the development in one area generalizes into the pool of motor development patterns and becomes accessible to other skill sets, e.g., the balance you gained from ballet lessons helps you on the basketball court. Closer to home, the whole-body synchrony developed in jibengong or practicing the form can generalize to your combat responses.

When sparring slow you can also focus on your technique and pay attention to detail. How you actually are doing something and find the reasons it doesn't work. The real detail training happens with solo work though.


Ah yes, to some extent, but not entirely. Not all precision work is solo technique. Certain kinds of detail work are a function of the interaction of one's movement, structure, timing, pressure level, balance, force vectors, etc. with the opponent's/partner's. Solo practice simply cannot provide these factors for evaluation or modification. As such, it can be vitally important that that particular kind of detail work be corrected, improved and refined while still in the context of interaction with him. This is where practices like rou shou, tui shou, isolated drills and various levels of sparring come in. Further, the insights and improvements gained with a partner can often inform your solo practice in ways not otherwise possible by any other means.

All that technique training though won't help a bit if you don't try to use it while sparring, whether you go fast or slow. If you do your forms one way and your sparring a completely different way, then you are wasting your time. Your time would be better spend solo practicing the same way you spar.


All of this is why I like to use my analogy of building a racing car in your garage. You build a basic frame/chassis, then go take it for a spin to see if the foundational stuff is sound. Then you take it back to the shop and add some features, then back to the track for a test spin. Rinse and repeat and you'll quickly end up with a car that zips and also holds together mechanically in the tight turns.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:11 am

kreese,

Good points and questions.
That book appears to mention nutrition as well. I think this is the essential Yin part of training.


Yep, and I'd add that proper sleep is even potentially more important than nutrition in that regard. Stress/state management, fatigue, weather, illness/injury, etc. are all things that can have a dramatic effect on both learning and retention, as well as neuromuscular function.

Also, methods for how to correctly open and close practice to maximize the mental training, and any visualizations or meditation work one can do to enhance the myelination.


I'm assuming you are asking for such. There is so much information that I could offer in this area that it truly deserves at least a separate thread. In fact, I wrote a whole book about such factors years ago. I'll see what I can do. For now, I'll mention a couple of learning theory concepts known as the Primacy Effect and the Recency Effect. Taken together, they refer to the fact that, in any given set of learned information to process, we tend to learn and retain information at the very beginning and at the very end of the set far more strongly than the information 'in the middle', so to speak. This is why multiple short sessions can often dramatically out-produce learning results compared with the same material being covered in longer sessions or one long session.

Any research on nutrition and myelination?


Yes, but almost all of it is remedial or palliative in nature, and usually in relation to pathology/dysfunction, such as with regard to multiple sclerosis. In contrast, research regarding the process of myelination and its generative physiological function and role in learning new neuromotor skills is relatively new. I'm not familiar off the top of my head with research specifically covering the relationship of nutrition with non-pathogenic/dysfunctional aspects of myelination. A Pubmed, etc. search is probably in order.

Chris, how do myelination and neurogenesis (I think, growing new neurons) interact, if at all? Implications for training?


Brilliant question! I am only anecdotally aware of such research being pursued, and it would be inappropriate to mention anything specific publically at this time, but that topic represents part of the absolute cutting edge of current neuroplasticity and gene therapy research as regards neuromotor phsyiology. When I become aware of such research being published publically, I will be happy to share it with the board.
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