Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:26 am

Deus,

Very interesting questions regarding the soccer vs. violin style of practice and myelination needs. In my own work, I've dealt with all possible points along that spectrum, so I'll provide some of the insights I've gained.

He also discusses how the soccer guy will have a huge network of possible movements that are well mylinated while the violinist will have fewer possibilities but they will be highly refined because being a world class violinist requires extreme precision.


Yes, and in order to understand what our needs are, we must first determine what our primary training objectives are, which is why I'm always on about that so much as being vital right from the very beginning of training. There is no such thing as "the" needs of the IMA practitioner. In this sense, his needs are no different than any other stylist's. It all depends on what he is training his martial art to be able to do.

Now in IMA we have a need for precision with certain maneuvers and a gargantuan network of possible movements to react to practically infinite variations and circumstances. So it would make sense to have both practice aimed at refining techniques to a high level of precision and practice that maximizes the time spent using those techniques.


Why, yes indeed. And you have just demonstrated an elegant use of reason to jump right to the answer. I have for many years advocated a 'many pieces to the total training pie' approach, and this is exactly why. It's also one of the key reasons why the whole 'ten years before learning to fight' model is not only unnecessary, it doesn't even make sense in terms of the neurophysiological reality involved.

Let's take a look at it. For simplicity's sake, let's call the work we do in that first ten years the "precision" work. Let's call the work done to develop actual combat skills the "combat" work. The precision work requires the kind of refined and extremely targeted practice that the violinists use. Toeing in from the gua instead of the knee in koubu, or pouring the weight distribution from one leg to the other instead of stepping it there. Adjusting muscular tension to arrive at 'sung'. Using the deep spinal muscles to generate spinal whip instead of the abs and erectors. These kinds of things.

In contrast, the combat work requires the kind of non-linear, random access broad networks of associations and related movement patterns that the futsol players use. The parameters for what constitutes "proper" movement is ever-changing, with a huge volume of relevant stimuli/information incoming on a continuous real-time basis. The myelination, and just as importantly, the associated engrams for each type of practice are very different. In fact, they do not exist along the same spectrum of training development at all, but are indeed separate skill sets entirely.

As a result, there is absolutely no need and therefore no reason for their respective development to occur sequentially the way they would in the 10-yrs before fighting model. Not only can they occur simultaneously without any disruptive or inhibiting influence on the other, they can actually produce a synesthetic and mutually beneficial development through what used to be called "dual encoding" in the field but is now more accurately referred to as multilinear access neuroassociations. IOW, in some cases, the development in one area generalizes into the pool of motor development patterns and becomes accessible to other skill sets, e.g., the balance you gained from ballet lessons helps you on the basketball court. Closer to home, the whole-body synchrony developed in jibengong or practicing the form can generalize to your combat responses.

When sparring slow you can also focus on your technique and pay attention to detail. How you actually are doing something and find the reasons it doesn't work. The real detail training happens with solo work though.


Ah yes, to some extent, but not entirely. Not all precision work is solo technique. Certain kinds of detail work are a function of the interaction of one's movement, structure, timing, pressure level, balance, force vectors, etc. with the opponent's/partner's. Solo practice simply cannot provide these factors for evaluation or modification. As such, it can be vitally important that that particular kind of detail work be corrected, improved and refined while still in the context of interaction with him. This is where practices like rou shou, tui shou, isolated drills and various levels of sparring come in. Further, the insights and improvements gained with a partner can often inform your solo practice in ways not otherwise possible by any other means.

All that technique training though won't help a bit if you don't try to use it while sparring, whether you go fast or slow. If you do your forms one way and your sparring a completely different way, then you are wasting your time. Your time would be better spend solo practicing the same way you spar.


All of this is why I like to use my analogy of building a racing car in your garage. You build a basic frame/chassis, then go take it for a spin to see if the foundational stuff is sound. Then you take it back to the shop and add some features, then back to the track for a test spin. Rinse and repeat and you'll quickly end up with a car that zips and also holds together mechanically in the tight turns.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:11 am

kreese,

Good points and questions.
That book appears to mention nutrition as well. I think this is the essential Yin part of training.


Yep, and I'd add that proper sleep is even potentially more important than nutrition in that regard. Stress/state management, fatigue, weather, illness/injury, etc. are all things that can have a dramatic effect on both learning and retention, as well as neuromuscular function.

Also, methods for how to correctly open and close practice to maximize the mental training, and any visualizations or meditation work one can do to enhance the myelination.


I'm assuming you are asking for such. There is so much information that I could offer in this area that it truly deserves at least a separate thread. In fact, I wrote a whole book about such factors years ago. I'll see what I can do. For now, I'll mention a couple of learning theory concepts known as the Primacy Effect and the Recency Effect. Taken together, they refer to the fact that, in any given set of learned information to process, we tend to learn and retain information at the very beginning and at the very end of the set far more strongly than the information 'in the middle', so to speak. This is why multiple short sessions can often dramatically out-produce learning results compared with the same material being covered in longer sessions or one long session.

Any research on nutrition and myelination?


Yes, but almost all of it is remedial or palliative in nature, and usually in relation to pathology/dysfunction, such as with regard to multiple sclerosis. In contrast, research regarding the process of myelination and its generative physiological function and role in learning new neuromotor skills is relatively new. I'm not familiar off the top of my head with research specifically covering the relationship of nutrition with non-pathogenic/dysfunctional aspects of myelination. A Pubmed, etc. search is probably in order.

Chris, how do myelination and neurogenesis (I think, growing new neurons) interact, if at all? Implications for training?


Brilliant question! I am only anecdotally aware of such research being pursued, and it would be inappropriate to mention anything specific publically at this time, but that topic represents part of the absolute cutting edge of current neuroplasticity and gene therapy research as regards neuromotor phsyiology. When I become aware of such research being published publically, I will be happy to share it with the board.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:24 am

yeniseri,

Great work but you guys are making CMA into rocket science!


More like neuroscience, to be accurate. There's no implication that anyone needs a post-graduate-level academic education in order to be an effective practitioner of martial arts. I've simply applied the knowledge I gained in that field to a study of how that learning takes place. If someone else were a trained psychologist as well as a martial artist, it might not be particularly surprising for them to explore the topic of combat psychology. I've just done the same with neurophysiology. The improvements in modern sport performance as a result of sport science/exercise physiology in the last 20-25 years have produced results considered unachievable just a few years prior. They have also informed the modern practice of coaching and training sport performance to such a degree as to completely revolutionize it in some cases.

Likewise, the information obtained and insights gained from the work I've done in this area for the last 20+ years have allowed me to develop similar improvements to the training of combat skills. As a result, I can now routinely expect results for my purposes which dramatically surpass those of more common and/or traditional training approaches. These improvements would not be possible without the curiosity to explore the process in the first place.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby XiaoXiong on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:38 am

I have been taking lion's mane mushroom for a while now, which has been shown to stimulate myelination and nerve regeneration among other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hericium_erinaceus
Jess
What defines a martial artist is not how he fights, but what he fights for.
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby SteveBonzak on Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:42 pm

Chris-

For the purposes you have described, is it important to focus on a smaller number of movements per training session for maximal effects? In other words, train one set of movements and be done, or train twice the amount of time and go over two different sets of movements?

Thanks
-Steve
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:25 pm

Steve,

I'm not completely clear on what you mean by number of movements. Are you referring to numbers of postures within a given form, such as the 108 movements of the Yang Taijiquan form? Or are you referring to, say, simultaneously moving your arm and your foot? Generally speaking, the answer will be the former of your two options though. Smaller chunks of more specified work, over shorter, more numerous training sessions is almost always going to be more productive.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby SteveBonzak on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:41 pm

Chris-

When you say "more productive" you mean productive in terms of training the nervous system, correct?

So there are many ways to divide your training time. Would it be better neurologically to work on single palm change for 30 min and then be done for the day, or would it be better to train single palm change for 30 minutes and then double palm change for 30 minutes? The second requires substantially different movements so I am wondering if it will create too much noise in the system for the first part of the workout to take hold. Does that make sense?

Thanks
-Steve
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Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:23 pm

When you say "more productive" you mean productive in terms of training the nervous system, correct?


With the single exception of endurance, I mean it in any way, shape or form you want to word it. It's better in terms of distinct and noticeable improvements over the course of a single training session, as well as in the retention of the maximum percentage of that improvement from one training session to the next.

Would it be better neurologically to work on single palm change for 30 min and then be done for the day, or would it be better to train single palm change for 30 minutes and then double palm change for 30 minutes?


It would be just fine to work on both in the same day. The really important thing in terms of time is to take a short, approximately 5 minute break after each of those 30 minute training periods, during which you would ideally do either nothing at all or something utterly unlike the activity you were just practicing. This is called a Zeigarnik break and it does wonders for your learning retention percentage. I've mentioned it briefly in these threads:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11428&p=199158&hilit=+zeigarnik#p199158

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5456&p=96147&hilit=+zeigarnik#p96147

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3322&p=59203&hilit=+zeigarnik#p59203
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts

Postby Bhassler on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:14 pm

Chris McKinley wrote:
When we train a variety of movements, are we encoding each movement in toto, or are we encoding an array of smaller movements, and simultaneously encoding a bunch of discrete relationships between those movements that can later be combined any way we choose?


Excellent question. The answer is, perhaps inconveniently, most definitely the former. This tendency is what gives rise to the principle of specificity. Its converse is also equally extremely important to an understanding of learning theory. If the concept is a two-edged sword, the other 'edge' is that there is a strong tendency for that engram to be reinforced as an average composite of the performances of it within a given single session of practice. This has more to do with the cognitive aspects of that engram rather than purely motor aspects, but these are vital in regard to accessibility and long-term memory storage. I mentioned more about that topic here:

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic. ... cy#p199158

and here:

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic. ... cy#p210794

Existing separate motor engrams can be associated together through the very same kind of practice, but their associated actions would still have to be performed simultaneously in order to create a new integrated motor engram that includes them both.


Hey Chris,

Here's an interesting model some sciency guys did that may relate to this. It's just a model, and doesn't mean anything other than that it could be possible our brains work that way, but I found it interesting and it fits with how I would like things to work, so I may have to write an exercise book based on it and pass it off as my own brilliant scientific discovery. I'll buy you a steak and some beer with a (very) small portion of my earnings.

http://www.pnas.org/content/91/18/8651.full.pdf
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains. What I'm after is to restore to each person their human dignity.
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