Holding postures

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Holding postures

Postby yeniseri on Tue May 08, 2012 4:13 pm

Bao wrote:A chinese teacher I had spoke about and taught a method of holding postures when practicing a Tai Chi form. Appearantly, this method was common in earlier days. I found a text written by Wu Tu-Nan who writes about his own practice and his years studying with Wu Quan You and Yang Shao-hou. Its translated on http://www.freetao.co.uk/page620.html If you haven't read it, pls do. It's quite entertaining.

Now, my teacher taught that one should hold each posture for 6 minutes. But I have never read about this or similar methods of "Ding Shi" anywhere else. This is actually the first time I read about it.
Some questions comes into my mind. The two that bugs me are: Why doesn't "Ding Shi" seem to be part of any modern Tai Chi practice curriculum? Are there many other training methods who are either lost or kept secret?
What do you think about this?

Well, it's VERY good practice, I can assure you. You should really try playing at least a part of your form this way.
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EDIT: LOL! Forgot that the disitllery was readable for all. God damn it :D
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Bao,

DIng shi (holding posture) has alway been part of training but it tends to be haphazardly applied in modern day training. Taijizhuang (same principle i.e. holding posture but perhaps a more modern term!!!) One of my teachers mentioned this and the first person who I saw had it publicly profiled was Doc Fai Wong's book The "Secretss of Internal Taijiquan" I think that was the name and Yang Shaohou was a principal teacher who maintained this posture holding training, at least in those who referenced they studied with his line of taijiquan.
On Wu Tunan, I have never seen him do an actual taijiquan form, whether in whole, or in part and he tended to be an 'oddball' though his many statements appear to show some insight (secret, perhaps, I have no idea) but his positive spin is good to allow us to examine the depth of training and test it objectively.

I am accustomed to doing ding shi as individual posture practice as opposed to doing a form and when i reached a ding shi moment, stop, hold for X, then continue... Kind of weird..at least for me!

Many people downgrade 24 shi taijiquan but ding shi training applied to its jibengong is and can be positive.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue May 08, 2012 8:21 pm

I practice a form of Taijiquan that I was told is of the Yang Shaohou line that is smaller frame and we practiced quite a bit of low basin ding shi along with frequent full-contact no pads sparring. It's one anecdote, but perhaps there is something to that line that still emphasizes the ding shi.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Wed May 09, 2012 1:56 am

I thought I remembered Doc Fa-Wongs book, but I seem to be wrong. A very long time since I looked at it.

D_Glenn wrote: Keeping that unbroken 'silkthread' of 'weiqi' is the determining factor for how fast you can go, if you lose it you need to slow way down, even stopping to regain it, then slowly start moving again.


I also do believe that this is one of the real "secrets" of Tai Chi practice, performing it as you carried a thin thread of silk through out the form. But if you really focus on this feeling, I think its better to leave out the dingshi. Its good to practice the form this way without gaps and where one position end and the next movement begins seem to be the place where people break the thread. Maybe because they are too focused on showing off a good posture.

Yenseri wrote:Many people downgrade 24 shi taijiquan but ding shi training applied to its jibengong is and can be positive.


I don't downgrade the 24 form, but some of the people who teaches it and how it's sometimes taught. IMO there are no styles in Tai Chi and what form you practice does not really matter. Understanding and practice the principles of the art is what matters.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby GrahamB on Wed May 09, 2012 2:16 am

yeniseri wrote:
Bao wrote:A chinese teacher I had spoke about and taught a method of holding postures when practicing a Tai Chi form. Appearantly, this method was common in earlier days. I found a text written by Wu Tu-Nan who writes about his own practice and his years studying with Wu Quan You and Yang Shao-hou. Its translated on http://www.freetao.co.uk/page620.html If you haven't read it, pls do. It's quite entertaining.

Now, my teacher taught that one should hold each posture for 6 minutes. But I have never read about this or similar methods of "Ding Shi" anywhere else. This is actually the first time I read about it.
Some questions comes into my mind. The two that bugs me are: Why doesn't "Ding Shi" seem to be part of any modern Tai Chi practice curriculum? Are there many other training methods who are either lost or kept secret?
What do you think about this?

Well, it's VERY good practice, I can assure you. You should really try playing at least a part of your form this way.
You might ask why I start this thread in The Distillery. ...
EDIT: LOL! Forgot that the disitllery was readable for all. God damn it :D
(Well, at least I don't need to worry about the trolls)


Bao,

DIng shi (holding posture) has alway been part of training but it tends to be haphazardly applied in modern day training. Taijizhuang (same principle i.e. holding posture but perhaps a more modern term!!!) One of my teachers mentioned this and the first person who I saw had it publicly profiled was Doc Fai Wong's book The "Secretss of Internal Taijiquan" I think that was the name and Yang Shaohou was a principal teacher who maintained this posture holding training, at least in those who referenced they studied with his line of taijiquan.
On Wu Tunan, I have never seen him do an actual taijiquan form, whether in whole, or in part and he tended to be an 'oddball' though his many statements appear to show some insight (secret, perhaps, I have no idea) but his positive spin is good to allow us to examine the depth of training and test it objectively.

I am accustomed to doing ding shi as individual posture practice as opposed to doing a form and when i reached a ding shi moment, stop, hold for X, then continue... Kind of weird..at least for me!

Many people downgrade 24 shi taijiquan but ding shi training applied to its jibengong is and can be positive.


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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Wed May 09, 2012 2:45 am

Well, I thought we could leave out the discussions on Wu Tu-nan. I only brought him up because I thought the text was interesting.

Even if it's OT, I guess it's fair to tell a bit about him if people don't know who he is or have read the earlier discussions about him years ago.

On Wu Tunan, I have never seen him do an actual taijiquan form, whether in whole, or in part and he tended to be an 'oddball' though his many statements appear to show some insight (secret, perhaps, I have no idea) but his positive spin is good to allow us to examine the depth of training and test it objectively.


He is accused of being a person who Chinese government used to destroy the original art of Tai Chi and turn it into a health dance. Some people on the board like to say about the clip above that this is bad Tai Chi. Well, I don't like it very much either.

The clip shows the small frame ( http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/tcspeed.htm )

"The small frame strives for each posture to be compact. Movements agile and swift. This was transmitted by Yang Shao Hou." (Chen Yen Ling, Taijiquan Dao Jian Kan San Shou He Pian, 1943, page 24)

"This set of small fames has two hundred over movements, these must be performed and completed within a time of around three minutes." (Wu Tu Nan, Taijiquan Zhi Yan Jiu, 1984, page 100)


If the form in the clip above is Wu Tu-nan's own version or the original one, I don't know.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby yeniseri on Thu May 10, 2012 7:54 am

I have seen that clap and a few others like it but it seems more like some level of 'taijigong', taijiyangshen', etc as opposed to some discernable "style" though his laoshi yangshen taiji is 'abstract'. The moves are taiji ish, the stepping unique and different, the hands movements kind of, kind of something, I guess. Not dismissing the apparent 'spirit nourishing quality' of the internal which I am incapable of seeing but to match that, his status was high enough to balance his unique external outout of what he called taiji from his playing of it. Attempting to be diplomatic here!
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Thu May 10, 2012 9:45 am

qiphlow wrote:this is an awesome way to torture a beginner's forms class.
:D



Now that makes sense to me. I have a brittle little ex-ninja masticating Yin Fu Bagua right now. He needs to chew more slowly.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun May 13, 2012 5:36 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Dr. Xie said all the Taijiquan who were worth their weight practiced the form this way. It's not so much about moving into a posture and holding it but taking roughly 2 or more minutes to move into and out of each movement (shi). The important part was to get the sensation of 'weiqi' in your hands and keep it there for the whole 2 hours or so that it took to go through the form. Keeping that unbroken 'silkthread' of 'weiqi' is the determining factor for how fast you can go, if you lose it you need to slow way down, even stopping to regain it, then slowly start moving again.

.


That's what we attempt to do with out Xing Yi in all of our forms and Shi Li.

In our Baji lineage, one of the ways in which forms are practiced is to transition between postures normally, but hold each final posture for 30 seconds. That makes for an extremely long Baji form practice...
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Re: Holding postures

Postby nianfong on Mon May 28, 2012 2:24 pm

Bao: If you want me to move this to the main forum, just let me know.

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Re: Holding postures

Postby Wuyizidi on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:15 am

Bao,

The practice Wu Tunan talks about is not anything secret. There's a very well known expression in Taiji called "yi bu yi zhuang" (each step [can be] a zhuang) - each time you take a step, when you finish the unit of movement associated, you can hold that posture as a zhan zhuang exercise. Here we need to be systematic: each type of zhang zhuang is designed to practice certain abilities: some are for stability in certain directions (up-down, left-right, front-back), some for practicing shen, some for yin yang feeling (kan zhuang and li zhuang), some for integration (seven star in Taiji, san ti in Xing Yi), etc.

Lots of people think if they find a great teacher, and they listen to everything the teacher says, and do it, they will automatically reach level of mastery. But any honest teachers would admit in the end each students still need to think and reflect deeply and direct their own training in order to reach mastery. Zhang Zhuang is one great example: each person is different, most of us are naturally good at certain things, stronger on one side, more stable in certain directions, but not as good in others. One way to balance and correct these is through targeted zhang zhuang practice. If particular posture/position is difficult, uncomfortable for you, then you should pick that out and practice that movement, hold that posture, do extra requisite conditioning (strength, flexibility, balance, coordination, etc) until it's as easy and comfortable as others.

Here's an example of that: for handstand, I like to raise one leg to the wall like in a split, then another. I do it this way because I'm naturally flexible. It requires almost no effort. Then my teacher asked me to put my legs together, and slowly raise them with my core muscles instead. That requires much more strength, control, balance. If I had always done it my way, using my natural advantages, I never got to address my weakness (core strength). Until I tried to do it that way, I never experienced the weightlessness you feel when you propel your legs past a certain height. Correct movement leads to correct feeling, correct feeling leads to understanding of the skill. If you never do the external movement right, you never get the feeling for the skill. So get uncomfortable, and do what you hate, for that's usually where your weakness lies.

You don't have to hold it for exactly 6 minutes. In the beginning 2 minutes might be difficult. And don't stop at 6, do it until you're like Ren Guangyi doing horse stance "it's been forty minutes already, this is so easy, I'm bored. I can do this forever."
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:41 am

Thanks Wuyizidi for your thoughts.

Wuyizidi wrote:Bao,
The practice Wu Tunan talks about is not anything secret.


Yes, but some people treat it as a secret because so few teach this.

each person is different, most of us are naturally good at certain things, stronger on one side, more stable in certain directions, but not as good in others. One way to balance and correct these is through targeted zhang zhuang practice. If particular posture/position is difficult, uncomfortable for you, then you should pick that out and practice that movement, hold that posture, do extra requisite conditioning (strength, flexibility, balance, coordination, etc) until it's as easy and comfortable as others.


Very good advice.

You don't have to hold it for exactly 6 minutes. In the beginning 2 minutes might be difficult. And don't stop at 6, do it until you're like Ren Guangyi doing horse stance "it's been forty minutes already, this is so easy, I'm bored. I can do this forever."


Good points. Six minutes should be considered as a general rule only. Some tai chi zhan zhuang though are taught to stand as long as you can. My teacher thought that in order to be able to stand six minutes you must make a certain change in your posture. Your body will correct itself if you allow it to. So this is a "pre-heaven" aspect of the practice that is important to incorporate into your practice.

Tai chi has aspects of taoist "yoga" or old qigong, as Tai chi is also regarded as a method to study and develop "pre heaven qi" to allow the body to return into the "pre-heaven state". Holding postures is an important taoist aspect of form practice and especially important if you want to "boost" your tai chi as health practice.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:21 am

Wuyizidi wrote:There's a very well known expression in Taiji called "yi bu yi zhuang" (each step [can be] a zhuang) - each time you take a step, when you finish the unit of movement associated, you can hold that posture as a zhan zhuang exercise. Here we need to be systematic: each type of zhang zhuang is designed to practice certain abilities: some are for stability in certain directions (up-down, left-right, front-back), some for practicing shen, some for yin yang feeling (kan zhuang and li zhuang), some for integration (seven star in Taiji, san ti in Xing Yi), etc.

Lots of people think if they find a great teacher, and they listen to everything the teacher says, and do it, they will automatically reach level of mastery. But any honest teachers would admit in the end each students still need to think and reflect deeply and direct their own training in order to reach mastery. Zhang Zhuang is one great example: each person is different, most of us are naturally good at certain things, stronger on one side, more stable in certain directions, but not as good in others. One way to balance and correct these is through targeted zhang zhuang practice. If particular posture/position is difficult, uncomfortable for you, then you should pick that out and practice that movement, hold that posture, do extra requisite conditioning (strength, flexibility, balance, coordination, etc) until it's as easy and comfortable as others.

Good points!

In 'Old School' traditional training, this type of tai-chi chuan form practice naturally occurs as students are required to hold the final position of each posture in a form set while the teacher makes adjustments and corrections in the student's posture externally and advises them in refining the correct feeling to employ internally. In a group class situation, this usually involves standing still in the posture for several minutes while the teacher corrects every individual student in this way. Students are advised to train in a similar fashion during their private personal practice outside of the class sessions with the same agenda priorities.

The use of a mirror can aid in identifying correct posture externally, and holding each posture for a time allows the student enough time to progressively relax into the correct position by identifying areas of stored physical tension, constriction and inflexibility which need to be eliminated. Over time, the student acquires the ability to detect the right look and the right feeling in every posture, both when holding the postures and when practicing them with chi flow throughout the form sequence without break or pause between them.

This is one of the primary reasons why many styles of tai-chi chuan teach a slower speed, large frame form set at novice levels of practice. The slower speed allows ample time in performing each individual posture to identify the correct look and feel, as achieved while holding each posture for longer periods of time apart from simply moving through the entire form sequence with continual movement.

These training methods are all standard practice in the older Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan I learned in the Yang Shao-Hou lineage which is part of the Shen Men Tao System.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:36 am

I had forgotten about this thread. I was doing this yesterday with our dragon form. There are several positions that are pretty difficult and involve a lot of coiling and twisting the body so I stopped in these spots while doing the form to focus on getting them as right as I can manage currently. It was exhausting to say the least but very beneficial.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Wuyizidi on Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:55 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
...
In 'Old School' traditional training, this type of tai-chi chuan form practice naturally occurs as students are required to hold the final position of each posture in a form set while the teacher makes adjustments and corrections in the student's posture externally and advises them in refining the correct feeling to employ internally. In a group class situation, this usually involves standing still in the posture for several minutes while the teacher corrects every individual student in this way...


This is one of the typical ways teachers torture their students. In a large class, it would take the teacher many minutes to correct everyone. The unwritten rule is, if the teacher hasn't got to you yet, if you're tired and sore, you can move out of the posture and rest for a second. But if the teacher corrected you already, you are to remain in that position until the teacher calls on everyone to move on to the next one. So it's much more painful for the people who get corrected first :)
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Ralteria on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:22 pm

Wuyizidi wrote: The unwritten rule is, if the teacher hasn't got to you yet, if you're tired and sore, you can move out of the posture and rest for a second.



Maybe that one should be written down, hahahah. It's definitely not in effect in my teachers class. :o
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