Holding postures

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Holding postures

Postby Aged Tiger on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:53 am

Let's not forget that the perception of "holding postures" on the outside doesn't mean movement isn't taking place on the inside....

Temple style teaches single postures first and returns to this method after learning the form; closing the circle, so to speak.
perfect practice is the secret....
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Leishen on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:30 pm

In general studying the IMA needs LOT'S of free time.
IMO you need more or less
1 hour for neigong (dond gong/jing gong)
1 hour form practice
1 hour fight practice
and time for jibengong/breakfalls/weapons etc
if you count some meditation then we talk about 4-5 hours, lol.

No wonder why older generations were in another level if we believe even half of the stories of their accomplishments.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:30 am

Nothing extraordinary in it /time needed/, Leishen
Average daily 5-6 h of training is kinda of standard
in any "hig level"
/professional or olympic if you prefer/ sport activity
:)
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:19 am

wiesiek wrote:Nothing extraordinary in it /time needed/, Leishen. Average daily 5-6 h of training is kinda of standard
in any "hig level" /professional or olympic if you prefer/ sport activity


Well yeah, you do have a point. But the life as a professional sports athlete is very short. For many sports, you must retire after 30, in others even before that. IMA and most CMA is something you can develop and get better in even after you retire. IMO its better to compare IMA with music or arts. Many professional musicians also play and practice 5-6 hours every day, but this has also to do with the fact that playing is their work. Not all professional musicians practice 5-6 hours every day before they got into an orchestra. IMA though is slightly different. There is no big money to earn. So you dont need to practice to become the best in the world. You just need to learn how to defend yourself and practice enough to stay healthy.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:52 am

..."So you dont need to practice to become the best in the world. You just need to learn how to defend yourself and practice enough to stay healthy."
- perfect Bao :)
so
IMA practise isn`t pain of the ass then
and can be done all our life span,
particularly well balanced
but
this is the important point of trainings and everyone here are aware of...
to be clear:
this 5-6 or even more of the houers regime, is not literaly for everyday trainig time...
it is like you have couple "conditioning camps" during the year.
as
I recall from master Wang Ji Wu book his recomendation for keepi`n healtly body is :
two 40 minutes workout a day as the minimum ...
so, if
you like something more ....;)
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:00 am

ps
If you use qi gong as the medicine when sick
4 h is the minimum of the recommended time !
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:08 pm

ps If you use qi gong as the medicine when sick 4 h is the minimum of the recommended time !


The doctors who recommend that long time usually demand that you keep on the practice for quite a long time and that you do everything exactly correct. Otherwise your qi will hur you. So when you dont feel better after so and so long time of practice, they say that you ddn't practice enough or did some mistake. So now you need to take certain pills, medicine or ither treatment to correct what you did wrong. Indeed, TCM doctors usually have great business models.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:29 am

I dont` know,
trying avoid doctors all together :)

point is, that you have to discover >inner body knowledge< and allow your own body to do the job...
doctor may just show you direction, you have to do it alone.
consider, that you are working with delicate and not only physical matter
by simple movement and mind -breath unity you trying to change lot, not only chemical reactions inside body, what for itself is the challenge already...

...and that you do everything exactly correct."
this is understandable, if you think about possibility of the future correction ...

BTW, whole this "time frame needed" thing is very individual thing as anything in IMA
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Leishen on Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:19 pm

wiesiek wrote:Nothing extraordinary in it /time needed/, Leishen
Average daily 5-6 h of training is kinda of standard
in any "hig level"
/professional or olympic if you prefer/ sport activity
:)

No doubt about that.
Personally speaking, I am blessed with a lot of free time most of my life.
However for the average guy out there who has family, 8-10 hours job etc, things are very difiicult.
Even if you have time, the 3-4 hours training regiment if done correctly, is very difficult to be achieved, at least everyday.

That's why today we have that kind of problem in most traditional MA in general. That of practicality.
IMA and any TMA were designed for that kind of people I believe. It was mostly for the professional kind of people not too much for the average civilian. You had to put effort and time in many different training options to be complete and to reach a high level. Most of these people were very wealthy.
So, nowdays, most people just train a small portion of the complete curriculum of their given style, according to their personal needs and preferences.
That's why we have the IP group, the fighting group, the health group, the spiritual group etc.

IMO, in the best case senario and in an amazingly perfect world, we shouldn't have any of these groups, however, as I said before, time is very valuable.

Anyway, best thing is to keep training naturally. As my teacher says it is good to train natural, if we seek natural. Overdoing it is quite as bad as laziness....
Last edited by Leishen on Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Tesshu on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:33 am

Over time training usually becomes more effective.
Out of 10 repetitions a beginner maybe does 8-9 totally wrong and the other 1-2 just a bit wrong. Advanced students will change this towards a better ratio.
Imagine a "master" of something doing 9 out of 10 repetitions well.
To get 10 good repetitions he has to do a maximum of 10-20 repetitions. A beginner will have to do 10 times of that.

So I think with holding postures you should work on standing quite long. Later on, when you feel the effects coming regularly, you can reduce that time again, because it gets more effective.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Aged Tiger on Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:45 pm

Tesshu wrote:Over time training usually becomes more effective.
Out of 10 repetitions a beginner maybe does 8-9 totally wrong and the other 1-2 just a bit wrong. Advanced students will change this towards a better ratio.
Imagine a "master" of something doing 9 out of 10 repetitions well.
To get 10 good repetitions he has to do a maximum of 10-20 repetitions. A beginner will have to do 10 times of that.

So I think with holding postures you should work on standing quite long. Later on, when you feel the effects coming regularly, you can reduce that time again, because it gets more effective.


+1
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:48 am

I agree with Tesshu too,
but
this is true if we considering technique only
we can call it >external < part ;)
>internal< part doesn`t works exactly the same...
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Tesshu on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:53 am

wiesiek wrote:I agree with Tesshu too,
but
this is true if we considering technique only
we can call it >external < part ;)
>internal< part doesn`t works exactly the same...


This is difficult as it leads to the question: "What is internal?" Let us not pursue this topic here.

I'd go so far as to say: With experience and practice everything becomes "easier" for the practitioner.
I bet someone who meditates a lot will get into the meditative state easier and maybe earlier in a session than a beginner.
Beginner: 8min to get into the right state. 5min of good concentration. 5min before you realize you could also stop. ;)
"Master": 2min to get into the right state. 10min of good concentration. Done! ;D

Practice time is always very subjective. My teacher calls this "mind time". It's not just "fun= time passes fast", but more like the time you really train (ability to concentrate).
I smile about people that absentmindedly "train" for 2-3hrs (real time) but in reality really really concentrate for about 15min (mind time) in their whole training time. Mind you: I don't say that I smile about the "just 15min", but more about the quantity vs. quality approach.

Imagine someone standing there in Santishi thinking about the latest movie he saw, then sex, then work, then sex again, then posture work, sex, hot chicks and sex, cooking, water, posture, pain, sex, the laundry etc...
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:05 am

quantity vs. quality approach. no q. here.

this breakin`sex thinkin` doesn`t sound to me,
when i start i don`t switch...
waitesec! :o
I`m master then... :D

ok,
this whole qigong/energy/ip,etc ,development doesn`t work in linear manner / my experience/
meditation really needs some time to build significant brick in our MA wall,
and
somebody may need hours to grasp something what you get in sec,
but
behind the corner you may see the wall...
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Re: Holding postures

Postby wiesiek on Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:18 am

ps
15 min mabu in tram during way to work = 1,5 h on even, stable wooden floor? :)
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