Holding postures

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Holding postures

Postby Bao on Mon May 07, 2012 2:58 pm

A chinese teacher I had spoke about and taught a method of holding postures when practicing a Tai Chi form. Appearantly, this method was common in earlier days. I found a text written by Wu Tu-Nan who writes about his own practice and his years studying with Wu Quan You and Yang Shao-hou. Its translated on http://www.freetao.co.uk/page620.html If you haven't read it, pls do. It's quite entertaining.

In traditional Tai Chi training system, there’s one method of training called Ding Shi (performing a form with holding postures). Take ‘Grasp Sparrow’s Tail’ for example. It comes with 6 different moves and each of these has to be held in Ding Shi for six breaths before moving on to the next. So in all “grasp sparrow’s tail” as a sequence would take 36 breaths, roughly two minutes, to complete. Calculated by the average of 18 breaths per minute, the entire form consisting of 268 moves would take how long?! That’s how long you’ve got to hold for in each session! Each training session left me feeling utterly exhausted drenched in sweat. Even in coldest days of winter, I still ended each training session with shoes so soaked that I could shake off sweat drops from them if I took them off.


Now, my teacher taught that one should hold each posture for 6 minutes. But I have never read about this or similar methods of "Ding Shi" anywhere else. This is actually the first time I read about it.

Some questions comes into my mind. The two that bugs me are: Why doesn't "Ding Shi" seem to be part of any modern Tai Chi practice curriculum? Are there many other training methods who are either lost or kept secret?

What do you think about this?

Well, it's VERY good practice, I can assure you. You should really try playing at least a part of your form this way.

You might ask why I start this thread in The Distillery. ...
EDIT: LOL! Forgot that the disitllery was readable for all. God damn it :D
(Well, at least I don't need to worry about the trolls)
Last edited by Bao on Mon May 07, 2012 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Ben on Mon May 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Thanks for sharing! I look forward to playing around with this.

Why doesn't "Ding Shi" seem to be part of any modern Tai Chi practice curriculum?


I think the answer is simple, This kind of thing is to hard for most of the Tai Chi people out there. They don't want to put the effort in.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Dmitri on Mon May 07, 2012 3:56 pm

Bao wrote:What do you think about this?

Personally I think there's A LOT more value in continuous slow movement (when done properly) than in holding a series of static postures, but that's just me.

It does sound like good gongfu practice... Gotta wonder though, given that everyone has limited amount of time to practice, would holding postures be the best way to spend (most of) that time?
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Chris McKinley on Mon May 07, 2012 6:50 pm

I've done a whole lot of it over the years. These days, I use it for sharpening the resolution of my proprioceptive feelings in parts of a movement that don't feel as well wired-in as others. Finding the trouble spots and holding them for a bit helps provide me with a clearer set of tactile feedback when later performing it as part of the whole movement again.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby qiphlow on Mon May 07, 2012 7:10 pm

this is an awesome way to torture a beginner's forms class.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Mon May 07, 2012 11:56 pm

Ben wrote:I think the answer is simple, This kind of thing is to hard for most of the Tai Chi people out there. They don't want to put the effort in.

Maybe you are right but... But I feel that this might be only half of the truth. There are Yiquan practice which is in my opinion even more torture, and a whole lot of similar practice in other styles. I see it more like an evidence on how Tai Chi practice has changed and been watered down. Why don't we even read about this kind of practice in books from people who market themselves to know just about everything about IMA? I do believe that Tai chi practice, and Tai Chi itself was much richer in earlier days. The history that is presented in most books seems to be only half of the truth or less.

Dmitri wrote: Personally I think there's A LOT more value in continuous slow movement (when done properly) than in holding a series of static postures, but that's just me.

It does sound like good gongfu practice...


Well I personally do don't see it like Gongfu or external practice, not at all. I see it more like stance practice, like Santi or like combining Tai Chi with Yiquan. And I don't think that "continuous slow movement" is better practice. I do think that they really complement each other and should not be compared that way.

Gotta wonder though, given that everyone has limited amount of time to practice, would holding postures be the best way to spend (most of) that time?


Sometimes you can choose slow practice only and sometimes practice with holding postures. Nothing says you must choose between those two. Or even that you would benefit more to make an absolute choice. Why don't you play with it for one or two week and see if you like it?

And I don't believe that we should always practice in a certain way. If practice become only routine, we loose our creativity and slow down our learning process. I almost never practice the same way or focus on the same things for more than a week. I build everyday's practice from scratch. Mostly it will deal with my weaknesses or just what I feel would be fun to explore at the moment. (The only "bigger" choice, or serious on, I've made the latest years was throwing my bagua out through the window. )

For myself (the few days when I have a lot of time to kill) I can play a form one time at average speed just to "warm up" the system, or doing some other exercises to get the motor running. After that I play a part with ding shi as described. I ususally dont hold each and every posture. After that, maybe after some ten-twenty minutes break, I play the whole form slow and focused in the more "common way".

This kind of practice REALLY help your form and improves the over all quality of the postures and movement. If you have spent some time practicing like this, you might see great improvements.

Chris McKinley wrote:These days, I use it for sharpening the resolution of my proprioceptive feelings in parts of a movement that don't feel as well wired-in as others. Finding the trouble spots and holding them for a bit helps provide me with a clearer set of tactile feedback when later performing it as part of the whole movement again.


Well, yeah, that sum up much of the benefits. When we stand in one posture we must do the posture as good as we can. We must find the correct angles and alignment. We must be able to breath and relax properly and hold this posture. Its more easy when you are changing all of the time, and when we are able to cheat with the actual postures. Sometimes we won't realise how we cheat with, or misjudge our own postures when we practice slow and continuosly. But when we freeze the postures, we might understand some of our weakness.

Sometimes we might need to make some changes with our postures, and what we discover are things that we would not discover if we only practice in the more common ways.

But there are also different ways we can play with alignment and structure when we hold a posture. If you have studied Yiquan you might understand more how to "play" with static postures, or use them to discover more about yourself.

Qiphlow wrote:this is an awesome way to torture a beginner's forms class.

Well, yeah... I like torturing students as well! :D And I think a beginner will improve a lot due to better understanding of the postures and speed up his or her learning of the form. The only "danger" is that the students might see it like you just want to go around and check their postures. You should make the clear about what it's all about, even if you have to torture them a little bit more to get to the point.

... I ususally say that Santi teaching is great, because it allow you as a teacher to go an errand or take a coffée. Well, why should only Xingyi teachers have that privilege? ;D

... btw... that ridiculous big frame we see in modern Yang practice, like people doing the "24 forms" practice, has no place in the format of ding shi practice. If you practice tai chi as this type of "old people's qigong" only, you might as well skip it.
Last edited by Bao on Tue May 08, 2012 12:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue May 08, 2012 4:30 am

Bao,

I agreed with everything you wrote until you got to this point....

... btw... that ridiculous big frame we see in modern Yang practice, like people doing the "24 forms" practice, has no place in the format of ding shi practice. If you practice tai chi as this type of "old people's qigong" only, you might as well skip it.


.....where I couldn't disagree more. As I have mentioned recently in regard to optimally slow practice, slowing down your movement speed in practice (or occasionally stopping it, as in the case of ding shi) allows you to notice more details of your performance, including subtle flaws which might not otherwise have been noticed. The very same is true of enlarging the frame of your movement. It blows everything up to its largest size where you can see subtle flaws more clearly and correct them, flaws you might not have noticed with a smaller frame. I find it very much like zooming way up on an image in Photoshop. Every flaw is made glaringly obvious and corrections can be made with much better precision.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Tue May 08, 2012 6:25 am

Chris McKinley wrote:Bao,

I agreed with everything you wrote until you got to this point....

... btw... that ridiculous big frame we see in modern Yang practice, like people doing the "24 forms" practice, has no place in the format of ding shi practice. If you practice tai chi as this type of "old people's qigong" only, you might as well skip it.


.....where I couldn't disagree more. As I have mentioned recently in regard to optimally slow practice, slowing down your movement speed in practice (or occasionally stopping it, as in the case of ding shi) allows you to notice more details of your performance, including subtle flaws which might not otherwise have been noticed. The very same is true of enlarging the frame of your movement. It blows everything up to its largest size where you can see subtle flaws more clearly and correct them, flaws you might not have noticed with a smaller frame. I find it very much like zooming way up on an image in Photoshop. Every flaw is made glaringly obvious and corrections can be made with much better precision.


Well, we should not really speak about small or big movements at all. It should be all about internal connection and whole body movement. Small movements can be very large, yet appear small to the viewer. And when your movements become to big, there is one point where they get small. Small or big happens on the inside. How a frame looks from the outside should only be important for a beginner.

....

I really don't disagree with what you wrote above. What I meant was not Yang large frame. I meant ridiculously overextended large frame. A lot of health stylists, the kind of teachers who learn the 24 form in two weeks in beijing and have no clue of the function. They over-extend their arm movements so their arms are almost straight. And there are no balance, no alignment. Everything happens on the outside. This kind of Tai Chi may look like Tai Chi from the outside, but sometimes that's only an illusion.

So, what I men is that if you dont practice with a more classical frame and only learn for health, you probably won't benefit from the practice I describe in the original post. That's all.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue May 08, 2012 6:55 am

Bao,

Well, we should not really speak about small or big movements at all. It should be all about internal connection and whole body movement.


It's not that we shouldn't speak about the former, it's just that the ultimate objective is the latter. However, there's a very big difference in the ability to discern, evaluate, and precisely correct subtle flaws in connection and movement between large and small frames.

Small movements can be very large, yet appear small to the viewer.


This doesn't make sense on its face. Please clarify what you mean.

And when your movements become to big, there is one point where they get small. Small or big happens on the inside. How a frame looks from the outside should only be important for a beginner.


Um, no, not really. What happens on the inside isn't about big or small, nor is it described by those terms. I suggest you clarify so that we can find more appropriate terms for the aspects to which you are referring. Further, the size of the frame is very much important no matter what level of skill or experience because it is often a function of very different results in terms of the physics.

I meant ridiculously overextended large frame. A lot of health stylists, the kind of teachers who learn the 24 form in two weeks in beijing and have no clue of the function. They over-extend their arm movements so their arms are almost straight. And there are no balance, no alignment. Everything happens on the outside.


Okay, well that helps clarify what you mean a bit more. I agree with you there. Although, to me, that is almost all of the large Yang frame I've ever seen by anybody, even the "name" practitioners. Percentage-wise, an almost negligible number of large frame practitioners worldwide practice the art for actual combat as opposed to health, culture, stress management, etc., etc. So much so that for discussion purposes, the large frame is essentially synonymous with the health dance.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Tue May 08, 2012 8:06 am

This doesn't make sense on its face. Please clarify what you mean.

Oh dear, I've been using a kind of upside-down thinking for such a long time that I seem to have hard explaining myself. Well, let's have a try then.

It makes perfectly sense, at least in a taoistic sort of way. To understand how things really are, we sometimes must understand the reality from the opposite of how we actually see things. Because sometimes things are quite the opposite from what they seem to be. Like when a person jump up, we see an upward movement. But actually, the important movement is downwards. It's all about how much you can press down into the ground. People see the the upward movement as yang, but what they believe is yang is actually Yin. So explaining something from how we see a thing with our eyes is often very different from how we would explain the same thing if we understood the function behind what we saw!

Therefore, I don't look at the external movements and see them as not very important. So about frames: If you wave your arms only, the inside doesn't move, which means that you don't have full body movement. It looks big but is disconnected. So I call this small movement. And it's correct to say this, because only a few muscles are used.

But if you move from the feet, waist and spine, you use all of the body to move. Even if you move slightly, the whole body will still move, so the body moves much more, and much more muscles are involved, even if the movments can look much smaller! And this means that you don't need to move your arms much at all, even if you want the movements to look big. So the big movements [like from the limbs] of a larger frame should actually be small. And the internal movements and whole body movement is what makes the frame appear large.

Think of it as a disc spinning. With tai chi, sometimes the disc are made with separate rings, where all the rings can spinn individually. Sometimes only the outside rings are spinning, but everything else is stationary. It looks like all of the disc is spinning, but its not. With some tai chi, all of the rings are spinning. And the inner rings spinns even faster than the outer rings.

Further, the size of the frame is very much important no matter what level of skill or experience because it is often a function of very different results in terms of the physics.


Well, I agree to 50% maybe. If the movement should be larger or smaller should be a question about the practical function of a movement, not the visual appearance. Well, function will have very different results in terms of the physics. But people tend to focus on frame and not function. So if we get rid of looking at Tai Chi as small or large frames, we can clearer focus on what is important - connection, internal movement and full body movement. This is about learning the real physics of tai chi movement, how to learn to use the body. The practice of the movements must start and end from the inside and be a question about function. This is exactly why we practice slowly so we can try to figure out the weakness of our movement and of our alignment. It's quite the opposite from how the movements look like and how to keep a certain frame. But it's is certainly not how the most people think. So the correct focus can help us understanding the correct function. Therefore frame is not important.

the large frame is essentially synonymous with the health dance.


Well, I won't call just anything Tai Chi just because it looks like Tai Chi. Large frame doesn't need to be health dance. It can be good tai chi as well. But the problem is that if it turns into health dance only, it often becomes external and lacks internal connection and full body movement. I call this small movements even they look big. But it doesn't matter what you call it. If it lacks the function of the tai chi movements, the practictioner will lack balance and alignment. He or she will float and have no roots. This is not Tai Chi.

.... A long explanation... Have I made it clear what I meant?
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Re: Holding postures

Postby jjy5016 on Tue May 08, 2012 9:27 am

In his book on "Tai Chi Secrets" Doc Fai Wong wrote that his teacher said the old method of practice was to move into a posture and hold it for 10 or 20 breaths. Can't remember which it was as I read the book long time ago.

If Wu was not exaggerating about the sweating then he had to be doing more than just standing in the postures for a few minutes.

I'm sure that there was a very specific purpose for the Ding Shi practice. I'm sure that there are a lot of other training methods that are both secret and lost.

A couple of years ago I was talking with a certain GM late at night in his kitchen. He was complaining that none of his students were worthy of this & that and that he had old handwritten books that were passed down to him that he was going to burn before he died rather than pass them on to someone who would not appreciate them. I hope he doesn't do it but that's the mentality of some of the old timers.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby jjy5016 on Tue May 08, 2012 10:00 am

Actually now that I think of it I did learn a method some time ago in a taiji form wherein I had to hold the posture and then just think about the next movement and wait until it started. Got to try that again. Some say that it's the yi leading the qi. Others say that it's just the subconscious because of the repetitive movements one does during form practice.

???
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Re: Holding postures

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 08, 2012 10:52 am

Dr. Xie said all the Taijiquan who were worth their weight practiced the form this way. It's not so much about moving into a posture and holding it but taking roughly 2 or more minutes to move into and out of each movement (shi). The important part was to get the sensation of 'weiqi' in your hands and keep it there for the whole 2 hours or so that it took to go through the form. Keeping that unbroken 'silkthread' of 'weiqi' is the determining factor for how fast you can go, if you lose it you need to slow way down, even stopping to regain it, then slowly start moving again.

.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Dmitri on Tue May 08, 2012 11:20 am

D_Glenn wrote:It's not so much about moving into a posture and holding it but taking roughly 2 or more minutes to move into and out of each movement (shi)

Exactly.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby jjy5016 on Tue May 08, 2012 11:22 am

D_Glenn wrote:Dr. Xie said all the Taijiquan who were worth their weight practiced the form this way. It's not so much about moving into a posture and holding it but taking roughly 2 or more minutes to move into and out of each movement (shi). The important part was to get the sensation of 'weiqi' in your hands and keep it there for the whole 2 hours or so that it took to go through the form. Keeping that unbroken 'silkthread' of 'weiqi' is the determining factor for how fast you can go, if you lose it you need to slow way down, even stopping to regain it, then slowly start moving again.

.

My teacher also spoke of doing the long Yang form this way. Said that it was the traditional way practiced in China. Long & Low. Two hours to do one rep of the form. Used to make me do grasp the bird's tail sequence like this. Low, long & stretched out to develop the tendons and the likes. One minute to go from lu to ji. I absolutely hated it. (Now of course I'm going to have to do it again) He also contended that this was the basic training and that more advanced training was done in a higher stance like Wu style.
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