Hit me!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Hit me!

Postby GaryR on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:08 pm

There is a teaching method I think vital to the combat viability of any Martial Art --"hit me".

The student needs to feel what it's like to both 1) have a technique executed on them as they attack full speed / power, and 2) execute a method when somebody is trying to hit them.

One also has to accept the fact that everyone gets hit. Everyone. The Teacher or senior students are no execption. The next question is, ok, what If I get hit? Or, What if I F*C# it up? You will get hit, and you will F8#k it up, nothing is perfect, and it better be functional long before its near perfect.

Thoughts? Musings? Experience?

G
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Re: Hit me!

Postby Mr_Wood on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:58 am

We were discussing this just at the weekend. Getting hit also desensitizes you from taking hits after a time and its good conditioning for the body as long as nothing gets broken or seriously injured. It teaches you to control how much power you put into a strike and knowing where to stop and also like you said 'everybody gets hit sometime' so best to know how to deal with that and carry on as best as possible.

On the other hand I remember a chap who was rather good at Mantis doing a simple limb destruction strike on my wrist a few years back. Almost broke my wrist and took a long time to recover. i use my hands everyday for work, they are my bread and butter so I wasn't particularly happy about this. I've seen a few accidents with people not knowing or controlling their own strength / power so I think it is very important for all to have a good understanding of this so they don't injure others unnecessarily. Especially with beginners when they learn a new technique but are not made aware that it can really damage someone if they don't take care.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby jjy5016 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:55 am

Good for conditioning the body and desensitizing one. Also helps one to realize that "this is no time for fucking around" awareness. Taking a few of good shots makes someone much more serious about defending himself. Also helps in making one lose any fears or hesitations he might have and gives him a reality check on just what he's got and what he needs to work on.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby Tesshu on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:53 am

To train good defense without fearful reactions it is good to get clear input (strikes that will hit you if you screw up).
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Re: Hit me!

Postby jjy5016 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:11 am

An old, dear and brilliant friend of mine who was a psychotherapist used to say "Pain is the greatest motivator".
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Re: Hit me!

Postby liokault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:33 pm

jjy5016 wrote:Good for conditioning the body and desensitizing one.



I don't see any conditioning from taking blows, other than mental, which is great.

What I would like to see much more is, as well as doing things at 100% speed and 100% intent to hit, having the "attacker" not pause and let you do your Kung Fu at them, you know, like in life and stuff.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby Dmitri on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:46 pm

I just have to do this.

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Re: Hit me!

Postby jjy5016 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:59 pm

liokault wrote:
jjy5016 wrote:Good for conditioning the body and desensitizing one.



I don't see any conditioning from taking blows, other than mental, which is great.

What I would like to see much more is, as well as doing things at 100% speed and 100% intent to hit, having the "attacker" not pause and let you do your Kung Fu at them, you know, like in life and stuff.


I did mean mental conditioning.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby Mr_Wood on Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:41 pm

liokault wrote:
jjy5016 wrote:Good for conditioning the body and desensitizing one.



I don't see any conditioning from taking blows, other than mental, which is great.

What I would like to see much more is, as well as doing things at 100% speed and 100% intent to hit, having the "attacker" not pause and let you do your Kung Fu at them, you know, like in life and stuff.


I was thinking more along the lines of developing skills like iron body etc..which is mostly you hitting yourself :D
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Re: Hit me!

Postby GaryR on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:28 pm

jjy5016 wrote:Good for conditioning the body and desensitizing one. Also helps one to realize that "this is no time for fucking around" awareness. Taking a few of good shots makes someone much more serious about defending himself. Also helps in making one lose any fears or hesitations he might have and gives him a reality check on just what he's got and what he needs to work on.


Definitely, good points. I think the body conditioning portion is mental as another said, but also physical in the sense that your body can learn to adjust and minimize damage--rolling with the punches so to speak.

For example: as an aside I think kicks above the waist are tournament fodder, in my teens I was in a tourney against a TKD blackbelt, very fast kicker. I just rushed in on him at the same time he threw a nice front kick at my sternum. I didn't have time to avoid the kick all-together, but I did manage to palm it down to stomach level, cave my stomach in on impact and turn my waist with it. I kept his foot pinned as I took out his standing leg and delivered a nice palm to his forehead, he was down and out. I was not without a slight tummy ache, but he would have been done for in reality. The sad part is that he got two points for contact, and I got none as the open hand strike to the head was illegal move. But I'd rather loose points, than Mal-train myself for the game...so there you go.

G
Last edited by GaryR on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby Aged Tiger on Fri May 03, 2013 11:14 am

Old saying, "If you've never been hit, you ain't ..." Well, you get the idea.

There is no possible way that you are going to become a proficient fighter if you don't practice taking punishment. You WILL freeze.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby GaryR on Tue May 14, 2013 7:59 pm

Aged Tiger wrote:Old saying, "If you've never been hit, you ain't ..." Well, you get the idea.

There is no possible way that you are going to become a proficient fighter if you don't practice taking punishment. You WILL freeze.


For sure, that is a great point, Freezing is a near certainty, a mechanism that evolved so we wouldn't get spotted by predators, the proverbial deer in the headlights.

G
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Re: Hit me!

Postby lazyboxer on Tue May 14, 2013 8:52 pm

Depends on who's doing the hitting. There are some people I definitely wouldn't want to bang with, since the potential for injury or worse is too great. What's the point? Once you've felt or seen the damage that certain strikes can do, you'd be a fool or mad to ask for a second helping. Once is enough to learn respect.

At the opposite extreme is fear of being hit, which has an inhibitory paralyzing function, so at least some realistic training is a must. In a real fight, mental and emotional flexibility and the ability to escalate rapidly up to and including lethal levels of force is absolutely required. I don't think lots of ring experience necessarily guarantees that, and probably the only time you find out is when it's too late.

The best help in a fight is the adrenaline dump you get in the beginning, which gives you the juice to finish it quickly and temporary dulling of the pain receptors. Anything beyond that, and you'll need to be a security professional who fights every day for a living or a Shaolin monk ;)

P.S. Does this reasoning also apply to locking and throwing? Some of the qinna training I've been doing has taught me to be very, very careful with my partner. It's incredibly easy to cause serious injury. These techniques really are potentially lethal.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby GaryR on Wed May 15, 2013 5:59 pm

lazyboxer wrote:Depends on who's doing the hitting. There are some people I definitely wouldn't want to bang with, since the potential for injury or worse is too great. What's the point? Once you've felt or seen the damage that certain strikes can do, you'd be a fool or mad to ask for a second helping. Once is enough to learn respect.


I'm not necessarily talking about just earning respect. Feeling how a method is executed on you helps immensely to learn how it should be done. Allowing the student to throw a punch at me does that for them, I don't need to injure them to demonstrate.

lazyboxer wrote:At the opposite extreme is fear of being hit, which has an inhibitory paralyzing function, so at least some realistic training is a must. In a real fight, mental and emotional flexibility and the ability to escalate rapidly up to and including lethal levels of force is absolutely required. I don't think lots of ring experience necessarily guarantees that, and probably the only time you find out is when it's too late.


Exactly, it is a must, hence my point. But I don't think one has to find out when it's too late, that's what good pressure testing and ADST is for.

lazyboxer wrote:The best help in a fight is the adrenaline dump you get in the beginning, which gives you the juice to finish it quickly and temporary dulling of the pain receptors. Anything beyond that, and you'll need to be a security professional who fights every day for a living or a Shaolin monk ;)


Definitely, not sure Shaolin monks fight much though?

lazyboxer wrote:P.S. Does this reasoning also apply to locking and throwing? Some of the qinna training I've been doing has taught me to be very, very careful with my partner. It's incredibly easy to cause serious injury. These techniques really are potentially lethal.


If a teacher can't demonstrate proper Qinna and throwing without injury, he/she shouldn't be teaching. With students practicing on each other it must be carefully ramped up. Which is why for quite awhile, as an instructor I need to be their test dummy--because I can prevent myself from being injured more-so than other students.

Ideally the student will not end up taking many blows after a short time, but without them knowing the fear of an actual full speed attacks, and practicing such reactions, it's all academic.

G
Last edited by GaryR on Wed May 15, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hit me!

Postby lazyboxer on Thu May 16, 2013 10:16 am

GaryR wrote:
lazyboxer wrote:Depends on who's doing the hitting. There are some people I definitely wouldn't want to bang with, since the potential for injury or worse is too great. What's the point? Once you've felt or seen the damage that certain strikes can do, you'd be a fool or mad to ask for a second helping. Once is enough to learn respect.

I'm not necessarily talking about just earning respect. Feeling how a method is executed on you helps immensely to learn how it should be done. Allowing the student to throw a punch at me does that for them, I don't need to injure them to demonstrate

Thanks for your replies. Yes, we learn from hitting and also from being hit: but the lessons learned are many and varied.

GaryR wrote:
lazyboxer wrote:At the opposite extreme is fear of being hit, which has an inhibitory paralyzing function, so at least some realistic training is a must. In a real fight, mental and emotional flexibility and the ability to escalate rapidly up to and including lethal levels of force is absolutely required. I don't think lots of ring experience necessarily guarantees that, and probably the only time you find out is when it's too late.

Exactly, it is a must, hence my point. But I don't think one has to find out when it's too late, that's what good pressure testing and ADST is for.

Perhaps I didn't put it well. I meant that you can't be certain how your training will work in reality until the shit hits. Cage fighting, illegal no holds barred tourneys etc. are always one path to go if you have to find out. Even then there'll be a judge to stop any killing - but I know of enough public tournament cases when men have died. "Accidents" will happen - but can you really call something an accident when you' connect with a full power kick to the head?!

GaryR wrote:
lazyboxer wrote:P.S. Does this reasoning also apply to locking and throwing? Some of the qinna training I've been doing has taught me to be very, very careful with my partner. It's incredibly easy to cause serious injury. These techniques really are potentially lethal.

If a teacher can't demonstrate proper Qinna and throwing without injury, he/she shouldn't be teaching. With students practicing on each other it must be carefully ramped up. Which is why for quite awhile, as an instructor I need to be their test dummy--because I can prevent myself from being injured more-so than other students.

G

This is a good point. It's always wise when in doubt to offer quick submission to any (demonstrated) qinna technique. Only a handful of the very best teachers can modulate their techniques, flowing with resistance without causing injury. They are the ones I want to learn from.
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