Bolang Jin Wave Power

[neijia_boxer]

D_Glenn-

hey how is it going? right, when Park taught the technique it was done "big and exaggerated" in the warm-up phase much like the way the guy is going in the video. later is becomes smaller and refined and even unperceivable in the fighting forms as to not waste movement and telegraph intent. What I see Mike Patterson doing is the small movement. He kindly goes to slow motion for the viewer. This is no different than the way I was taught the "Tien gong" in Gao style baguazhang. the movements can be done long and extended to train the body to stretch and develop strength and power, and then refined to much smaller refined movement for combat.

i guess i am less familiar with the terms and differences in the tucked/untucked versions of spinal wave power. I just have done dragon back, single palm with the dragon back, double palm strike with dragon back type exercises.

Matt

[jjy5016]

I never learned (or practiced) the two jins (bo lang and fan lang) as separate items. I was taught that they made up proper shen fa and both should be present in the execution of a technique. Speaking of them as two separate things makes me think of one practicing methods that are incomplete. One should lead into the other. If you separate them then you are doing the old one - two instead of just one.

D is right in that the short video clip is just a sample. Most probably done extra large frame to exhibit the desired body method.

Certainly wouldn't say that he is just using arms and legs. Crapulent perhaps somewhat. After all the internal process of vomiting does produce some rather violent external actions to occur. But what do I know, not having won two kuo shu tournaments or training several students who were also fighting champions.

[SteveBonzak]

i havent really followed this much but the exercise that Mike Patterson was showing and what Pa Kua Chang Master- Park Bok Nam taught called "Dragon Back" looks pretty much the same. I found this video online of the Dragon back exercise.

Keep in mind that this is just the beginners drill to develop this skill. It is also isolated from the shaking power, which can be added later. In addition, the wave does not become more small and refined just by practicing this one exercise. You have to be shown other exercises to get it small and to develop better control over your dantien - at least in Shifu Park's system of bagua.

Best
-Steve

[Patrick]

was taught that they made up proper shen fa and both should be present in the execution of a technique. Speaking of them as two separate things makes me think of one practicing methods that are incomplete. One should lead into the other. If you separate them then you are doing the old one - two instead of just one.

The way I was/am taught, this "wave movement" (as shown in the video) would be disconnected movement.

[D_Glenn]

I never learned (or practiced) the two jins (bo lang and fan lang) as separate items. I was taught that they made up proper shen fa and both should be present in the execution of a technique. Speaking of them as two separate things makes me think of one practicing methods that are incomplete. One should lead into the other. If you separate them then you are doing the old one - two instead of just one.

And your post from page 1:

Gathering bits and pieces of information over the years and I think the best description of the difference and how Xingyi came to be is because Xin Yi first uses the torso method called 'Fan Lang Jin' (Reversing Wave Power) to put power into it's strikes. This also reverses flow down the 'Du' meridian and brings power back to the Dantian with force, which if you don't have a well developed Dantian it will cause some internal problems, hence the requirement of 3 years of standing practice before you start any training. The creation of Xingyiquan came from the desire and need to have an art that one can practice immediately so they took only the techniques from Xin Yi that use the torso methods of 'Bo Lang Jin' (Crushing Wave Power) where the power comes from the Dantian and follows the normal flow up the 'Du' meridian to power the strikes, this way the practice of learning to power strikes and developing the Dantian through standing practices could be done simultaneously and take the new student to a high level of skill in a shorter amount of time.

But I do agree with what you wrote above. Coincides with what I was taught. We also practice our basic standing for three years to develop a foundation that can take the abuse that comes with practicing the fan lang jin.

Didn't intend to derail the Wave Power subject. Sorry.

Well IMO, you have now officially derailed the thread.

If you read my Song Dynasty theory and Neidan post you can get some idea as to why there are the warnings about using 'Fanlang jin'.

Basically: 'Bolang Jin' is opening the 'Three Gates' in their proper order. Only after one has spent years building a Dantian, then creating 'Vitality' (炁 Qì), then using it to strengthen the exterior of the body (making the body like a brick oven to house a forge), then Stage 3 turning the Kan Trigram into the Qian Trigram and the Li Trigram into the Kun Trigram (or turning the pot of water into a crucible and the fire into a furnace), then Stage 4 'Reversing the order'.

But even at that stage of cultivation the 'Fanlang / Reverse wave' should still only be done on every 3rd movement while training and when drilling the movements.


As I mentioned on page 1 of this thread: I don't think it's a good idea to even bring up the 'reverse wave' but the cat is already out of the bag.

I do, however, think it's a really bad idea to brag-up the 'Fanlang / reverse wave' by saying stuff like "Speaking of them as two separate things makes me think of one practicing methods that are incomplete."

Seriously think about the impressionable people who might be reading this thread.

I titled the thread: "Bolang Jin Wave Power" because that is what I intended it to be about and it's the only thing that I feel can safely be practiced on one's own.


Now why is a Martial System still complete in offense and defense when only using 'Bolang Jin Wave Power': because when one is 'Storing-Up Power' (蓄劲 Xu Jin), (after it's been released and breath vigorously exhaled), then casually inhaling the breath, non-forcibly un-tucking the tailbone, etc. - it's all being hidden by the hands working together like links in a chain (连环 'Liánhuán') where the 'Outgoing' and 'Supporting' hands hide the movements of the body.

Not to even mention that 'Jin' is not typically 'Fa'/Issued in every single strike or throw during a fight as the hands are mainly still just striking while using 'Chongji Li'.



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[jjy5016]

D,

You only get 1 "sorry" per thread.

I didn't realize that you'd been appointed the savior of the impressionable people on the board. Apparently my experience differs from yours. But that's what makes up a discussion.

Perhaps if I spend a lot more time sitting on my ass translating old obscure writings on theory and less practicing I can aspire to your level of accomplishment in quan.

[D_Glenn]

jjy5016,

Sorry, your post just struck a nerve.

I don't mind hearing about different experiences but a link to website in order to find out more about everyone's experiences would be nice every now and then.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't even have any idea what style you practice. What Country you live in. Or even if we're actually talking about the same thing since the terminology we're using is different.

And maybe somebody new to the CMAs might be interested to study your system since you obviously have the experience.

That's all I would like to see happening on RSF.



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[jjy5016]

jjy5016,

Sorry, your post just struck a nerve.

I don't mind hearing about different experiences but a link to website in order to find out more about everyone's experiences would be nice every now and then.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't even have any idea what style you practice. What Country you live in. Or even if we're actually talking about the same thing since the terminology we're using is different.

And maybe somebody new to the CMAs might be interested to study your system since you obviously have the experience.

That's all I would like to see happening on RSF.



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Like hitting your funny bone on the corner of a desk?

I was just trying to add another facet to what I saw as an important topic for discussion.

[Doc Stier]

I like the translation of Xin as mind and Yi as intent.

It fits in with how they're used when talking about the 5 Shens:

1 - 心 'Xin' - Emotional Mind, Consciousness.
2 - 意 'Yi' - Calculating Mind, Subconsciousness, Intent.
3 - 志 'Zhi' - Will power.
4 - 魂 'Hun' - Imagination.
5 - 魄 'Po' - Instincts.

The 'Xin' is said to contain our long-term memories.
The 'Yi' contains our "muscle-memory" or rather all the physical actions we need to learn and use on a daily basis: how to swing a hammer, how to type on a keyboard, how we move while doing martial arts, etc.
The 'Zhi' is in control of our short-term memories.
The 'Hun' contains our ability to imagine into and make plans for the future.
The 'Po' contains our instincts, or what are called Pre-Heaven memories.

Glenn:

Your definitions and assigned functions for the 5 Shens contradict themselves, in my opinion. It's as if you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes so everything neatly fits into your perspective on the subject matter. As usual, my objection to much of your writing is your inclination to present your personal opinions and interpretations as the authoritative, final word on the subject.

Memory, imagination, emotional responses, natural instincts, autonomic functions, spontaneous reactions, and the like, are really the domain of the deep subconscious mind, which accepts and retains as fact whatever is presented to it under certain circumstances. The conscious mind in turn draws upon the wealth of data stored in the subconscious to make conscious decisions, subjective choices, value judgements, personal discriminations, and so forth.

You attribute subconscious qualities and functions to each of the five categories, while simultaneously defining them with words like "calculating", "intent", and "will power", which are the domain of the conscious mind. Thus, your comments on the subject seem to convey a personal interpretation of the 5 shen which includes apparent misunderstanding or confusion about their respective qualities and functions, and their respective relationships to the conscious and subconscious mind.

[D_Glenn]

Doc,
On the Five Shens of Chinese Philosophy I purposely intend the translations to be sometimes vague, sometimes specific, and sometimes contrary because there is no one-to-one correlation of English to Chinese as the Chinese Characters themselves are just symbols that mean different things depending on the context they're used in. So rather than listing all the different contexts I try to just come up with the different words and concepts of the English language to explain them and gradually chip away at them over the years.

They're really just intended to be portrayals of Chinese metaphors and analogies. Where a single metaphor might work for some people, it doesn't makes sense to other people. So in the Chinese language there are already many different metaphors for explaining the same thing but according to what my Teacher has discovered, from teaching Westerners, is that he has to try and come up with even more metaphors and often has to say 'This rule (and it's metaphor) is for this specific practice, right now. Maybe a year from now there will be a slightly different practice with it's own rules and metaphors.' For some reason We like rule and order in our lives. Where in Nature everything is in constant change so trying to nail down a concept is only really accurate for that moment in time.

I loosely based those terms off of several different English translations.

Giovanni Maciocia likes to think of 'The Three Treasures' (精氣神 Jīng​ Qì​ Shén) as Essences, Qi, and Mind instead of Spirit and he reserves the word 'Spirit' for the complex of the 'Five Shens' / the mental-spiritual aspects that make up a human being. So all Five Spirits are actually inside of, and the components of that working mind and all the mind entails - thoughts, dreams, memories, emotions, etc.

So, I don't intend to pigeon-hole them into a single concept. Just trying to isolate the the different metaphors of the Classics into their own groupings.

Depending on how they're looked at they could seem contradictory but I like to think of them, (paraphrasing my teacher), "...as just different glimpses of a whole sphere, which when looked at, one only sees just a two-dimensional circle."



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[D_Glenn]

Just a heads up about linking external pictures that aren't from your own website:

It's oftentimes disturbing and quite confusing to be surfing through the old threads on the forums and come across posts where the admins of the websites that contain the linked picture have changed it into something utterly disgusting because they identified the linked picture that had been stealing their allotted monthly data transfers.


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[Doc Stier]

Doc,
On the Five Shens of Chinese Philosophy I purposely intend the translations to be sometimes vague, sometimes specific, and sometimes contrary because there is no one-to-one correlation of English to Chinese as the Chinese Characters themselves are just symbols that mean different things depending on the context they're used in.

They're really just intended to be portrayals of Chinese metaphors and analogies. Where a single metaphor might work for some people, it doesn't makes sense to other people. So in the Chinese language there are already many different metaphors for explaining the same thing...

Magnificent justification, but still wrong in my opinion.

It makes both your translation work and your personal interpretations appear questionable at best.

[D_Glenn]

I think my translations of the Chinese texts are pretty solid, (other, better translators than me have said as much), and I stand firmly behind them.

But I encourage people to question my personal interpretations and that is why I always try to include the actual Chinese Characters so they can use those to search online, rather than having to struggle to find the Characters on their own and never really knowing if they're using the right one.



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[Doc Stier]

I think my translations of the Chinese texts are pretty solid, (other, better translators than me have said as much), and I stand firmly behind them.

But I encourage people to question my personal interpretations and that is why I always try to include the actual Chinese Characters so they can use those to search online, rather than having to struggle to find the Characters on their own and never really knowing if they're using the right one.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification, and for the boatload of great info you've posted on this forum thus far.

[D_Glenn]

Thanks.

I was going to edit my post to add - that when 'translating the texts' the Chinese characters are all in context.

It's only when you try to put the individual characters into some kind of a list that they become out of context.


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