Bolang Jin Wave Power

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby NoSword on Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:42 am

So when taiji people (and others, but taiji seems to emphasize this most strongly) 'step into the ground,' this is the same 'zhuangji li' that a boxer uses to power a cross?

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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 pm

NoSword wrote:So when taiji people (and others, but taiji seems to emphasize this most strongly) 'step into the ground,' this is the same 'zhuangji li' that a boxer uses to power a cross?


No.

That's a different skill called 沉 'Chen' (Sunk down; Heavy) that is developed via 站樁 'Zhan Zhuang' (Standing Staked)/ Standing Postures and/ or 行樁 'Xing Zhuang' (Moving Staked)/ Slow-moving practices where one is moving extremely slow and pausing occasionally (Ding Shi) like a Tiger walking down a mountain. When the feet are on the ground it's as if they're nailed/staked down (钉 Ding). (When the feet are moving they're light and agile, like a Dragon soaring through the clouds - 騰 Teng)

The martial arts that emphasize 'Standing Work' have this 沉 'Chen' quality developed to such a degree that it imparts a different, special quality which then becomes inherent in everything one does.

(All the different CMA practices add their own unique quality to the whole overall picture.)

In the beginning one naturally has to rely on 沉 'Chen' to have a stable platform for the 發 'Fa' (Issuing; Releasing) of power but ultimately, and over time, one can also learn to 發 'Fa' (Use the waist and sacrum) while being in the 騰 'Teng' state (Light and soaring). Ending the movements in the 'Cat-stance', like I mentioned previously, is about the halfway point between these 2 ends of the spectrum. Of course this doesn't replace 沉 'Chen', one can then 發 'Fa' (Issuing; Releasing Power) while in either state. 騰 'Teng' is just more difficult and therefore considered an 'Advanced' (高等 Gaodeng) level of practice.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby Ralteria on Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:39 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I don't really understand what you guys are talking about.



No, doubt. In your initial reply to me it seemed like you were lumping up/down spinal power with bolang/fanlang and the two function independently. But that was my own inference, not yours. I just read past what you actually wrote and made a connection that wasn't actually there.

So when I said "waist" and " leg and core compression" what I meant was: "using the spine and deep core muscles in conjunction with leg power in such a way as to bring power to the limbs without visible movement". Which you've summed up previously. My brain was just addled when i was reading the post.

Then when chiming in with Nosword about whether it starts at the foot or the tailbone...I was looking at how I'm used to expressing power in total and not just bolang as a separate distinct force. I don't disagree with you there, at least as far as I seem to understand you. In practicing syncing everything up so it fires and arrives at the same time it can be easy for someone(me for example :-X ) to blur that line and lump x(power coming up the legs) and y (Bolang/fanlang) together. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some aren't taught both simultaneously.

I also apologize ahead of time if this post doesn't make much sense either. It's been a loooong week.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:11 am

Ralteria, No worries. You actually got me to come up with a better description for the movements. In the past when I wrote "The waist generates horizontal power; the spinal column generates the vertical power; the two combined generate the diagonal.", someone actually took that to mean the actual compression and decompression of the discs between each vertebrae. :o

I'm beginning to realize why the Chinese don't like to use words or descriptions before a student is actually practicing this stuff. The words and metaphors they use only really make sense after one is on the path of self discovery.

That's why I'm filming stuff to add a visual aid to the descriptions.

That's why my teacher went to great efforts to film/ document each and every movement done with 'Fa Li' (Practicing with Power), multiple times in a row while strung together in the forms and each movement taken out of the form and done in drills, and filmed from 2 different camera angles. He even went to the effort of undoing the level of refinement he uses now and intentionally made the movements as 'Obvious' (Ming) as he could physically do them, just for the sake of passing the 'Bolang Jin' skill on to the next generation.

The best way to learn it is to see it being done but the teacher can't force the student to "look and comprehend" what it is they should be learning.

Some see it, most don't.

I'm hoping that discussing it openly will encourage more people to take a second look, or look deeper at what's been 'right in front of their eyes' this whole time. And I'm not just talking about Baguazhang, as it should be in almost every CMA and there's still lineages that have it, one just has to look and see it.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby Miro on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:59 pm

Good topic, guys (I discovered it only now, perhaps I should read RSF more thoroughly), thanks to Glenn for bringing it up and to others for good discussion.

NoSword wrote:I have one question: the way I was taught, it was never entirely clear to me whether the wave starts at the feet ('stepping into the ground') or in the coccyx region. I have gotten results with both. I remember someone -- I think it was Somatai -- posting a video of a Western taiji teacher in Thailand talking about two "pumps" -- the foot and the dantian. I'm not sure if this was what he was talking about?
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It starts in dantian, goes to the feet (that is mostly automatic process but if you will do it carefully, you can notice it) and only then back to the dantian and up to the arms and legs (because as old principle says: Jin has root in the feet, goes through legs, is directed by yao and expressed by hands and figers...). We do it naturally with legs because we stand on the ground (or sit on the chair etc.). So actually it starts in dantian (also because everything starts in dantian) but if you say that it starts in feet, the answer is correct too (reminding me the old question "What is the difference between yes and no?").
However, it is possible to do it also directly from dantian straight up to the fingers, but that is much more difficult and if someone can do it, it is quite high level. It is similar like what cat does when falling on the back - it can turn its body without "grounding" so that it lands on legs. That is where groundpath theory is incorrect, otherwise it is correct too.
On the another note, xiao zhou tian (microcosmic orbit) in Taoist alchemy is also the same movement of tension, as you wrote it. You can feel it when you put hands on the body of the teacher. Too bad most teachers (Mantak Chia, Xu Mingtang etc.) teach it as pure imagination...

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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:01 pm

Miro wrote:...(because as old principle says: Jin has root in the feet, goes through legs, is directed by yao and expressed by hands and figers...). We do it naturally with legs because we stand on the ground (or sit on the chair etc.). So actually it starts in dantian (also because everything starts in dantian) but if you say that it starts in feet, the answer is correct too (reminding me the old question "What is the difference between yes and no?").
However, it is possible to do it also directly from dantian straight up to the fingers, but that is much more difficult and if someone can do it, it is quite high level. It is similar like what cat does when falling on the back - it can turn its body without "grounding" so that it lands on legs. That is where groundpath theory is incorrect, otherwise it is correct too.


That passage was written by 李亦畬 Li Yiyu and while it may be true for Li Style Taijiquan it's incorrect as far as I'm concerned.

The Classic Taijiquan texts attributed to 武禹襄 Wu Yuxiang are what I've found to be accurate and Li Yiyu's writings actually contradict Wu Yuxiang's.


Starting from the premise that "Jin Begin's at the foot's root,..." is self-limiting. How could one ever advanced past the basics and move onto higher levels of skill?



In our style of Baguazhang we start learning from the beginning that "The mind (xin) is the commander and the waist is the banner (used to signal the troops)"

The Waist/ Dantian is the root and origin of all movement in Baguazhang. The legs have to be doing their own thing because they're almost always striking the opponent's legs. "Legs strike 70%, the arms strike 30%."


***
Here's something I had written previously and ultimately most of the CMAs want to have and use 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) when they're striking:

There are some Basic ways of looking at Force in the Chinese Martial Systems. Which also represent a natural progression or order that they're learned in so that one fully develops the skills.

1. 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact or Thrusting Force) a.k.a. 撞擊力 Zhuàng​jī Li (Hitting; Colliding Force) is the standard way that all the worlds martial artists punch and strike. It's like hitting a nail with a hammer. When we speak of Forces or adding in forces this is the 1st force. This is the initial contact of fist to body.

2. 螺旋力 Luoxuan Li (Spiraling; Drilling Force) or 自轉力 Zì​zhuàn Li (Rotating Force) is when one physically twists, drills, and rotates the fist, bones of the forearm, and shoulder as the strike is landing or the arm is bridging.

3. 發力 'Fa Li' is another mechanical movement or 'force' that can be done in addition to the 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì force and adds in a 2nd movement and a following force to the initial strike. This is done through a quick movement of the spine, coordinated with the movement of the arms and legs. Storing up (蓄 xù) then releasing (發 fa) and the secondary force travels out through the arms. There's a term in Chinese Arts called the 五弓 Wu Gong (5 Bows -as in 'bow & arrow') meaning the 1- spinal column, 2&3 - the two arms, 4&5 - the two legs. The movements in the CMAs are said to start at the 'root and not the tip' - the root of the arm is the shoulder, the root of the leg is the hip, and the root of the spine is the tailbone or sacrum and tucking the tailbone under with a fast quick movement is how we 發力 Fa Li / 發勁 Fa jin, which is also called 波浪勁 Bo Lang Jin (Wave Power a.k.a. "Spinal Wave").

Learning to 發力 'Fa Li' is a precursor to learning the following 2 Forces:

4. 爆破力 Baopo Li (Exploding Force) a.k.a. 寸力 Cùn Li​ (Inch Force) is the ability to generate force in a very short space. After one first learns to 'Fa Li' with the spine then they can begin to learn this force where you need to store up (蓄 xù) very quickly and efficiently, or rather the storing up part needs to also be done within a short or confined space and then release the force (發 fa) in an equally as quick manner, like a quick pulse rather than a wave, and this could be a short movement or long movement of the arm with the quick pulse at the end.

and

5. 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) a.k.a. 抖勁 Dǒujìn​ (trembling; shaking energy). This is quick sudden variations in the 肌肉 jī​ròu (muscles and flesh) and a shifting between 鬆 sōng (relaxation) and 緊 jǐn (tension). The goal of this force is that it 透勁 tòujìn​ (penetrates; passes through) and into the internal organs of the opponent, damaging them. It's also used in quick succession to take the slack out of the opponent's limbs and joints and thereby being able to affect their spinal column and whole body, primarily to aid in throwing but the shaking/shocking can itself cause soft tissue damage to the limbs and body, and even whiplash or injure the neck. The power and force that comes from the 發力 'Fa Li' where the movement of the sacrum moves the Dantian and the force that comes from this jolting of the Dantian moves 'omnidirectionally', or expanding outward in all directions, so a good portion of the power is also going down to the foot and this is the reason for the rule of "The hand and foot arriving at the same time." or timing the landing of the foot with the hand hitting the opponent so that most of the force goes into the opponent. If the foot lands before the hand then most of the force is dissipated into the ground. We take advantage of this force traveling to the leg and the 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) is actually a 3rd outgoing force into the opponent, arriving just after the 1st (衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì/ Zhuangji Li) and the 2nd (發力 'Fa Li' ). So this 振 Zhèn (Shocking force) comes from using some of our Intent (意 'Yi') to 發 'Fa' into the feet while the upper body is relaxed and then a delayed force comes back up from the ground and adds in a 3rd dispersive or explosive force to the initial strike.



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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby Miro on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:48 pm

D_Glenn wrote:That passage was written by 李亦畬 Li Yiyu and while it may be true for Li Style Taijiquan it's incorrect as far as I'm concerned.
The Classic Taijiquan texts attributed to 武禹襄 Wu Yuxiang are what I've found to be accurate and Li Yiyu's writings actually contradict Wu Yuxiang's.


I do not think so but because you did not write where you see contradiction, it is pointless to discuss it - if you need it, perhaps I can solve (I hope) those contradictions. But frankly, I think you are clever guy and able to find out that those supposed contradictions are just different views of the same thing. So I can only say this: try not only read but also find out why and how it was said what was said.

D_Glenn wrote:Starting from the premise that "Jin Begin's at the foot's root,..." is self-limiting. How could one ever advanced past the basics and move onto higher levels of skill?


I do not understand your question, sorry. I also do not understand why should it be self-limiting... In math, one starts with simple calculus and then goes to differential equations and so on. The same is in IMA. Of course you can not skip calculus and go straight to differentials...

D_Glenn wrote:In our style of Baguazhang we start learning from the beginning that "The mind (xin) is the commander and the waist is the banner (used to signal the troops)"


That sentence "Jin has root in the feet..." does not speak about xin because xin is everywhere (in everything) so it does not speak about what is obvious (it speaks only about body and leaves out obvious xin). So this sentence of your style is correct, it just says something different (it is aiming at different target).
However, I personally prefer to translate xin as heart and yi as mind (or even better as intention because heart is without intention), there is a big difference between them - heart is something we can not influence directly and consciously (or only after long special training) while mind is more conscious volition, especially in IMA. I still do not understand why so many translators translate xin as heart/mind and can not see so big difference between heart and mind...

D_Glenn wrote:The Waist/ Dantian is the root and origin of all movement in Baguazhang. The legs have to be doing their own thing because they're almost always striking the opponent's legs. "Legs strike 70%, the arms strike 30%."


Yao is not waist (exactly as yaoyan is not eyes of waist), otherwise it is more-less correct (more-less because again, there is a difference between origin and root so I take that first sentence as general statement), but that is again just another point of view. Because the purpose of this statement is different as purpose of previous statement about jin and its beginning in the feet.
I rather will not comment about percentages but it seems to me like use percentage of various movements during avalanche... But maybe it is ok and it is just me who do not understands.

And finally, with regards to the description of forces, thanks, it is good description, but I prefer description in those stolen notes from Yang family.

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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:30 pm

Miro wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:That passage was written by 李亦畬 Li Yiyu and while it may be true for Li Style Taijiquan it's incorrect as far as I'm concerned.
The Classic Taijiquan texts attributed to 武禹襄 Wu Yuxiang are what I've found to be accurate and Li Yiyu's writings actually contradict Wu Yuxiang's.

I do not think so but because you did not write where you see contradiction, it is pointless to discuss it...

I actually agree with what you'd written before, that's why I quoted you:

We do it naturally with legs because we stand on the ground (or sit on the chair etc.). So actually it starts in dantian (also because everything starts in dantian) but if you say that it starts in feet, the answer is correct too (reminding me the old question "What is the difference between yes and no?").
However, it is possible to do it also directly from dantian straight up to the fingers, but that is much more difficult and if someone can do it, it is quite high level. It is similar like what cat does when falling on the back - it can turn its body without "grounding" so that it lands on legs. That is where groundpath theory is incorrect, otherwise it is correct too.

Sometimes 'Yes' sometimes 'No'.


Miro wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Starting from the premise that "Jin Begin's at the foot's root,..." is self-limiting. How could one ever advanced past the basics and move onto higher levels of skill?

I do not understand your question, sorry. I also do not understand why should it be self-limiting... In math, one starts with simple calculus and then goes to differential equations and so on. The same is in IMA. Of course you can not skip calculus and go straight to differentials...

On this and other forums there's some history and subtext that you're probably not aware of - where some people have taken Li Yiyu's writings as a sort of mantra and won't believe what Wu Yuxiang wrote.

It's self-limiting because it seems like they're brainwashed and refuse to believe that there's two sides to everything.


Miro wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:In our style of Baguazhang we start learning from the beginning that "The mind (xin) is the commander and the waist is the banner (used to signal the troops)"

However, I personally prefer to translate xin as heart and yi as mind (or even better as intention because heart is without intention), there is a big difference between them - heart is something we can not influence directly and consciously (or only after long special training) while mind is more conscious volition, especially in IMA. I still do not understand why so many translators translate xin as heart/mind and can not see so big difference between heart and mind...


I like the translation of Xin as mind and Yi as intent.

It fits in with how they're used when talking about the 5 Shens:

1 - 心 'Xin' - Emotional Mind, Consciousness.
2 - 意 'Yi' - Calculating Mind, Subconsciousness, Intent.
3 - 志 'Zhi' - Will power.
4 - 魂 'Hun' - Imagination.
5 - 魄 'Po' - Instincts.

The 'Xin' is associated with the heart.
The 'Yi' is associated with the spleen.
The 'Zhi' is associated with the kidneys.
The 'Hun' is associated with the Liver.
The 'Po' is associated with the Lungs.

The 'Xin' is said to contain our long-term memories.
The 'Yi' contains our "muscle-memory" or rather all the physical actions we need to learn and use on a daily basis: how to swing a hammer, how to type on a keyboard, how we move while doing martial arts, etc.
The 'Zhi' is in control of our short-term memories.
The 'Hun' contains our ability to imagine into and make plans for the future.
The 'Po' contains our instincts, or what are called Pre-Heaven memories.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:41 pm

Miro wrote:However, I personally prefer to translate xin as heart and yi as mind (or even better as intention because heart is without intention), there is a big difference between them - heart is something we can not influence directly and consciously (or only after long special training) while mind is more conscious volition, especially in IMA. I still do not understand why so many translators translate xin as heart/mind and can not see so big difference between heart and mind...


But it's not about your interpretation. In classical chinese, xin(heart) is the character used for mind and thought. A teacher in philosophy explain it for me as that the brain and heart in chinese tradition are connected like yin and yang. Your brain might produce thoughts, but it's the heart which is used for moral judgement, morality which in chinese litterature is more important than just "thoughts" without substance.

Now, when we translate things from classical chinese texts, we can't really put in our own judgement, or do it how we think something should be translated. We must understand and translate texts according to the actual menaing of a text. Thus "xin" in traditional texts most often should be translated to "Mind" and not "heart".

"I like the translation of Xin as mind and Yi as intent.
1 - 心 'Xin' - Emotional Mind, Consciousness.
2 - 意 'Yi' - Calculating Mind, Subconsciousness, Intent."

The explanation from Glenn is good in a modern context and is a modern interpretation. But when have to deal with older terminology and translations, it's still all about finding the correct translation for the original meaning of words.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:40 pm

Miro wrote:And finally, with regards to the description of forces, thanks, it is good description, but I prefer description in those stolen notes from Yang family.

Stolen? Those are strong words. ;D

D_Glenn wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:From the point of view of a native Chinese speaker who practices IMA, I feel the explanations above regarding various types of "jins"( or powers)are much more understandable than obscurely written Chinese classical texts

Thanks CJW,

There were originally some Chinese definitions that followed those but they were so cryptic that I just decided to write my own definitions based upon my practices and understanding.
~ viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14901&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=29


You really preferred that guy's descriptions?

I didn't like them at all, too many rookie mistakes and misunderstandings. Not to mention that it had an elitist Taijiquan slant to it and I've only practiced Baguazhang so I had to start from scratch and add in a 5th - #3 Fa Li (which is clear he doesn't know about 'Bolang Jin'), and detail out the progression.

如锤砸钉 (like a hammer smashing a nail) is a common definition for 衝擊力chōng​jī​lì (force of impact) and what I was originally searching for.


For anyone else interested in the forum post that inspired me, see: http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=710679064



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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:43 am

D_Glenn, regarding the mind terminology. One problem I see with your definitions is that they do not take into account the fact that these terms can be used narrowly or broadly and may even be used in each others place, especially 心 and 意.

Sure Xin means emotions and feeling, when it means emotion and feeling. However, in another context it can mean the summation of feeling and thought, or, and here is the rub, it may just mean the logical mind. Yi means the whole mind, including but less so emotions, cognition, or only the reasoning part of the mind.

You can't just take these terms out of their context, and that's why you can never have a definition that is completely satisfying to a native English speaker, Chinese just isn't like that. The 五志 that you list there is only one list describing the mind, and the most formulaic and awkward. There is also 意志思虑智/ yi zhi si lu zhi, which describes cognition as a process and uses Yi in a very narrow and specific way. There is the axis of 意心志 which describes the mind the heart and the will as a vertical axis, very much like what you describe, but including the will.

Many many minds.

Sorry for the derail, one of the best threads ever.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:26 pm

Kevin,

You were one of the first people who prompted me to start looking into the 5 Shens and you'll forever have my gratitude for that. I never got too deep into all the various paradigms as they're all so different.

It's the simpler theories that are inside Baguazhang and just over a year ago my teacher gave an excellent lecture about how the 5 shens work in all aspects of Baguazhang's martial and health side. All the different aspects of the 5 Shens come together perfectly to describe how we train, the learning process, application, fighting ability, how the opponent is affected by various techniques, how the practices affect our own body and mind, how we can then use the practices to heal our body and mind, and then full circle back to how having a better mind and body benefits practice the training, the learning, fighting, etc.

I've tried to write it all down but what is so short and succinct in Chinese, heard in first person, where one can see all the body language and such, just becomes a quagmire of sentences in written English.

So that's a side tangent that I'd like to get into again but not at this time.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:34 pm

Miro wrote:I do not think so but because you did not write where you see contradiction, it is pointless to discuss it -

From 李亦畬 Li Yiyu's texts:

發勁要有根源, 勁起於腳根,主宰 於腰,發於脊骨,形於手指。
Issuing (Fa) jin requires an origin; Jin starts at the root of the foot; Is controlled by the waist; Issued (Fa) by spine; Shaped by the hands and fingers.


The reason I say that it is incorrect is because in our style of Baguazhang we strive to first have: Jin start in the waist, and be controlled by the waist; Issued by spine; Shaped by the hands and fingers.

As the waist needs to first be capable of generating great power on it's own. The Waist Strikes [the opponent] and the Waist Removes [the opponent's attack].

This is a medium type of force for close-in fighting. (When one learns to generate power from just the waist and spine, if so inclined, they can test it out by doing 'Fa Jin'/'Bolang Jin' with full power while standing on top of bricks.)


After learning this 'Medium' (Zhong) type of force one can then learn the 'Short' (Duan) force where: 'Jin starts in the back, issued by the spine/ back, and augmented by the waist [if need be]'.


And/Or learn the 'Long' (長 Chang) type of force where: Jin starts at the root of the foot; Is controlled by the waist; Issued by spine; and shaped by the hands and fingers.

The 'Long' force is actually the easiest to do as it's more natural but if one doesn't also have a 'Medium' power then they could find themselves in a lot of trouble with a good opponent.



Now I haven't been completely thorough in researching all the Taijiquan texts written before 李亦畬 Li Yiyu's, so I might be missing something, but from what I have seen it seems like Taijiquan fighters of previous generations also believed in developing 'Medium and Short' power along with the 'Long' power. That's why I think Li Yiyu's writings are a bit of contradiction. Especially since so many people have taken it to be the one, single truth.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby neijia_boxer on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:47 pm

i havent really followed this much but the exercise that Mike Patterson was showing and what Pa Kua Chang Master- Park Bok Nam taught called "Dragon Back" looks pretty much the same. I found this video online of the Dragon back exercise.

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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:36 am

neijia_boxer wrote:i havent really followed this much but the exercise that Mike Patterson was showing and what Pa Kua Chang Master- Park Bok Nam taught called "Dragon Back" looks pretty much the same. I found this video online of the Dragon back exercise.

Mike Patterson is showing the spinal mechanics of 'Fanlang Jin' (Reversing Wave), where at the end of the motion the tailbone is un-tucked.

I wrote that it's not what I consider 'Fanlang Jin' because I do it in combination with the inhaling of breath.

But Mike's clip, being it's just a sample trailer, is taken out of context so... I don't know, maybe it's explained further in the rest of the video.

This clip of the Dragon back exercise you posted is a good example and instructions for doing 'Bolang Jin' (Incoming/ Crashin Wave). And notice that it's done in combination with the exhale of breath and the tailbone is tucked under at the end of the movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We7jTGkyD84


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