Bolang Jin Wave Power

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Devlin, I am afraid I disagree with you. I demonstrated these movements to Tom when he came to visit (perhaps he can chime in here). At least in Xingyi, Tongbei, and Henan Shaolin the spine does indeed move in a wavelike fashion, both in bolang jing and fanlang jing. Longxing Quan and Baimei Quan employ this as well, as does Buddha Hand Wing Chun. What you are describing, at least in the systems of Xingyi that I have learned, is what is described as "shooting the fist like an arrow from a bow" - the back being the bow. In the intemediate level of Lohan Shaolin the Bow and Arrow stance uses these mechanics - only the rear leg as well as the torso function as either a single or a pair of "bows".
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:55 pm

I'm just trying to describe it in a simpler manner for the beginner or those who're struggling and need some encouragement and to know that they're not alone.

Ultimately the Root of the Spine (sacrum/ tailbone) moves first; Jolts the Dantian; Force exits the Dantian at Mingmen point; Travels up the spine/ du meridian; Encounters Da Chui point (GV14) and is diverted out to the hands.

So it is in a sequential order but the movement is much faster than one's mind can follow.

The "Spinal Wave" that I see people trying to do is the yoga-like motions where one is consciously trying to move each vertebrae.

To 發 'Fa' the whole movement needs just a single thought.

---
The only thing you might see that's different in my video clips is that I intentionally don't use 以头领身 as is done in XYLH but you can see a wave traveling up the flesh of my whole back and out the arm(s).

The power from the Dantian is a bit omnidirectional and is urged to go where one wants it to by the physical movements and our 'Yi' / Intent. This is why it's important to have 'Hand and Foot Harmony' as some percentage of the force is going down into the ground. This is why 'Kao' / Leaning strikes are so devastating because the opponent becomes like your front foot and then takes nearly 100% of the force coming through your shoulder.

In the kicking methods we try to divert more of the force into the foot than the hands. Some kicks require 'Bolang Jin' and others require 'Fanlang Jin' just because where the Sacrum needs to be at the end of the kick. The precursor to learning kicks is drilling strikes with 'Fa Li' while standing, or finishing the movement on a single leg or in a cat-stance rather.

I'm going to be filming some more vids later this year, in HD, so hopefully the movements come out clearer but many people, over the years, from many different CMA styles have seen me do this in person and have said it's the same as is done in their systems.

So, honestly, I truly don't feel that I am wrong or stating anything incorrectly.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:35 pm

Your description above is closer to my understanding of bolang jing.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby kenneth fish on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:53 am

Uh, thanks Tom......
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby kenneth fish on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:30 pm

You have a good memory - yes, when the spinal wave is done "at speed" it no longer visually looks like a wave - more, as you say, like a "pulse" (sudden, shock-like movement, not "pulse" as in "lentils"). To the person doing it (and the target) the "wave" quality is very much present.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:19 pm

Slow wave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pm7MhQlmH8

Moderately fast wave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD9u0l6fWEE

My teacher uses such analogies to help beginner get the idea.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby jjy5016 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:49 am

My teacher used the movement of an "inch worm" as his example. One of the exercises in yiquan that trains this type of movement has one lying on his back moving across the floor. There was a master in Chinatown almost 30 years ago who had his students practice lying on the floor propelling quarters off of their bellies. For all I know that practice might have been developing this wave movement as well.

Would you say that Mike Patterson is teaching fan lang jin in this clip at around 1:30?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Gvu5YwgVM
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:53 pm

No
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby jjy5016 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:02 pm

kenneth fish wrote:No


Hello Dr. Fish

Would you care to elaborate on why. It seems to fit D's description. If not what would you call the type of jin that Mr. Patterson is teaching / demonstrating.

I think that the material on that particular video is great for beginners and those who have never been exposed to using the spine when issuing force.

Most of the individuals I've come across haven't been taught the first thing about using the spine when issuing force which is sad.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:51 pm

I'm afraid I find Mr. Patterson's demonstration fairly crapulent. It is fairly obvious that none of what he is demonstrating is engaging the deep pelvic or spinal muscles - its all just throwing the arms and some thrusting from the legs.

First: this set incorporates the crane maneuvers that Mr. Patterson was trying to do:
.


Next, watch this gentleman's back very closely

you may have to click on the "youtube" icon and go directly to youtube to watch

and this one from a demo in New York's Chinatown

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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:53 pm

jjy5016 wrote:Would you say that Mike Patterson is teaching fan lang jin in this clip at around 1:30?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Gvu5YwgVM


It's not what I would consider fanlang or bolang jin.

'Bolang Jin' is done on the exhale of breath.

Later, after learning 'Fanlang', one can immediately strike again on the inhale of breath, then immediately 'Fa' again with another 'Bolang Jin' and exhale.

Inhaling the breath, bringing the 'Qi' back to the Dantian, makes the opponent feel Drawn-In/ Stuck (Zhan) like standing in the ocean and the 'Retreating Wave' (Fanlang) is pulling you out into the ocean, and right into the incoming 'Crashing Wave' (Bolang), and so on. Back and Forth, back and forth, knocked down by the Crashing/ Breaking (white crested) Wave then drug back out by the Retreating Wave and into the next Crashing Wave.


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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby NoSword on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:54 pm

I learned several different variations on 'bolang jin' from several different teachers to differing degrees of detail. To be honest I don't think much about it at all these days in my own practice, but this discussion has prompted a few reactions.

First of all, the way I was taught, the 'bolang' is definitely a sequential motion, a wave of tension which moves across the back and out to the hands. What moves, though, is the tension, not the spine itself. At first, some gross movement is required but this is not very effective; over time it is made invisible. "It moves but does not move." The scariest results I have gotten from practicing 'bolang jin' on partners has been when I didn't move at all; only my intent moved, deep into the earth, high into the sky and back down again.

The issue with using 'bolang jin' is that you have to have a structure. (What exactly is a structure anyway? Best saved for another thread.) There is a direct analogy with a guitar string -- the string has to be stretched taut before you can get a usable musical sound. Otherwise, you get motion, but no resonance. Lots of dancers, yogis etc, can move their spines in a wave, and this is very good for your body; the missing link for martial application is a fixed structure through which a wave can propagate.

I have one question: the way I was taught, it was never entirely clear to me whether the wave starts at the feet ('stepping into the ground') or in the coccyx region. I have gotten results with both. I remember someone -- I think it was Somatai -- posting a video of a Western taiji teacher in Thailand talking about two "pumps" -- the foot and the dantian. I'm not sure if this was what he was talking about?

This gets into another important conceptual distinction, which I use a lot in my practice: the distinction between moving something and originating movement from somewhere. I've seen a lot of problems arise, both for myself and for others, from confusing the two. For instance, generally speaking martial movements do not originate at the shoulders. But many MA'ists take this to mean that the shoulders cannot move. This puts the whole body on lockdown and clamps everything into a rigid block.

Similarly, it would be possible for my tailbone to tuck and untuck as a consequence of my stepping into the ground, or vice versa; or, I could choose to keep one fixed while I move the other part. But the movement has to originate somewhere, no?

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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby Ralteria on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:05 am

NoSword wrote:
The issue with using 'bolang jin' is that you have to have a structure. (What exactly is a structure anyway? Best saved for another thread.) There is a direct analogy with a guitar string -- the string has to be stretched taut before you can get a usable musical sound. Otherwise, you get motion, but no resonance. Lots of dancers, yogis etc, can move their spines in a wave, and this is very good for your body; the missing link for martial application is a fixed structure through which a wave can propagate.


This is what I was getting at earlier. D_Glenn usually mentions Bolang as an addition to thrusting force. Personally, I would say it's an addition to being able to produce power from leg and core compression as opposed to pushing off the ground (what I would classify as thrusting)...but this is an entirely different beast. I wrote waist, but when I say waist and D_ says waist we are talking about different things perhaps.

I have one question: the way I was taught, it was never entirely clear to me whether the wave starts at the feet ('stepping into the ground') or in the coccyx region.
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Lots of components moving simultaneously. I would say the wave starts at the feet, but the physical movement of your center mass ends with the wave at one point. But there are others who can pipe in far more experienced than me.

Ideally though you want the *hand* moving before everything...and everything falling into place behind it.
Last edited by Ralteria on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:42 am

In XYQ a distinction is made between 'bilateral' and 'unilateral' waves. I just made these terms up as there are no names for these. Basically, you can do a Bolang Jin through the whole back, like in the Bai He forms or the basic XYQ Tiger variations, which I'd call 'bilateral'. And then there's also a 'unilateral' wave, which emphasizes more one side of the back and body - as put to use in Pi Quan.

What's I'd call the 'unilateral wave' (either Bolang or Fanlang) seems to be a XYQ specialization. I hypothesize that it originated from Stick, Staff and Spear usage, as these sorts of waves can be employed with them quite well. I have been learning Pigua's Feng Mo Gun (short staff) over the last few months, and the XYQ shenfa works like a charm with that sort of weapon. One can also vividly see this at works with the Dai XinYi short stick.

Personally, when I was a beginner, one of the things that helped me most to understand the mechanics of Bolang Jin was learning the Pi Quan with the large spear (which involves more elaborate movement than just slamming it downwards).
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Re: Bolang Jin Wave Power

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:24 pm

Ralteria wrote:
NoSword wrote:
The issue with using 'bolang jin' is that you have to have a structure. (What exactly is a structure anyway? Best saved for another thread.) There is a direct analogy with a guitar string -- the string has to be stretched taut before you can get a usable musical sound. Otherwise, you get motion, but no resonance. Lots of dancers, yogis etc, can move their spines in a wave, and this is very good for your body; the missing link for martial application is a fixed structure through which a wave can propagate.


This is what I was getting at earlier. D_Glenn usually mentions Bolang as an addition to thrusting force. Personally, I would say it's an addition to being able to produce power from leg and core compression as opposed to pushing off the ground (what I would classify as thrusting)...but this is an entirely different beast. I wrote waist, but when I say waist and D_ says waist we are talking about different things perhaps.

I have one question: the way I was taught, it was never entirely clear to me whether the wave starts at the feet ('stepping into the ground') or in the coccyx region.
AK


Lots of components moving simultaneously. I would say the wave starts at the feet, but the physical movement of your center mass ends with the wave at one point. But there are others who can pipe in far more experienced than me.

Ideally though you want the *hand* moving before everything...and everything falling into place behind it.


I don't really understand what you guys are talking about.


***
The 'Waist' is basically the 'Belt Meridian' that wraps around the Dantian like a ring. So saying Move from the waist and move from the Dantian are the same thing. The Waist is the movement of the Dantian in the horizontal plane. The Sacrum moves the Dantian up and down in the vertical plane.

***
There are a lot of different ways to generate Thrusting/ Impact/ Hitting Force (Zhuangji Li). The 'Basic Force' where power is coming up the leg from the ground is what we call 'Deng Li' (Ascending Force). It's one of 6 basic body-mechanics that impart power in the martial arts but when one starts combining 2 or 3 then one get's all the myriad ways they can move to generate the 'Impact Forces'.

The Spinal Forces are highly specialized ways of moving and are then added in to all of one's basic body-mechanics.

So the body starts moving using the 'Basic Forces' and you have the option of 'Releasing' (Fa) the power of the Dantian (waist) and Spine or 'Containing It'/ Letting it circle back around* for a better opportunity to be on target. Meanwhile you still continue using the 'Basic Forces' of the 'Zhuangji Li'.

(*~ Letting it circle back around comes from the metaphor to this being like a hand-held sling (2 long strings attached to a pouch) to sling rocks, where one is always steadily spinning it around, as the target gets closer you increase the speed by winding it up, waiting for the right moment to 'Release', if the target suddenly moves then you have to wind it it back down to a slower, steady spin - Circle it back around again without 'Releasing' the rock.)


***

Here's some video that goes along with my descriptions of the waves: This first clip is just using 'Bolang Jin': viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14411&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=11

Second clip (from the next page of that same thread) is showing the use of 'Bolang Jin' and an immediate 'Fanlang Jin' on the upward strikes: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14411&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=26



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