The nature of experience and the mind

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The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:30 pm

In the Bolang Jin thread we began to get at issues of how the mind is seen in the old Chinese framework.

A common model is the 五志 wǔzhì or 5 "wills." This is derived from section of the 黄帝内经 Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic (Neijing) that looks at the storage qualities of the solid organs. Each of the Zang organs "stores" an aspect of the mind: heart-神 spirit, spleen-意 mind, lung-魄 yin "soul," kidney-志 will, liver-魂 yang "soul." This works nicely on many levels. Seeing the heart as the integration of thoughts feeling and being; the kidneys as the will to strive and survive/adrenal responses, and so on.

One of the things that causes problems is the inclusion of the 魂魄, which are pre-Heaven substrates, on this list. One of the key metaphysical assumptions of Chinese medicine is that we are defined by a dynamic interaction of primordial substrate and acquired psycho-biological traits. This list mixes and matches both these systems. I would argue there are much clearer ways of understanding the mind within the Neijing, but that this one fits the Wuxing model of nice clean five-point associations and so has been gravitated towards for centuries. If we consider the celestial (as opposed to cyclical circle and pentagram) organization of the Wuxing, this model works a little better. Then we can see an axis of spirit-mind-will, which places the emotions down in the will, the reasoning in the spleen and the spiritual things like enlightenment or wisdom in the heart. In this way the pre-Heaven aspects sit to either side.

The association of the liver and the 魂 Hun is a pretty good one. It goes like this: the blood is where the spirit is stored by the heart, blood pools in the liver in sleep, the Hun influences the spirit through dreams in sleep, hence the Hun is stored by the liver. If that is all the Hun did then it would be fine, but there is much more to it. When we look at the lung storing the 魄 Po the wheels really start to come off the bus and the Wuxing associations start to look profoundly arbitrary and strained. The Po underlies our physical substrate, nowadays we could consider genetics as part of this. As well, it plays a key role in our ability to have senses and sense experience. Not much to do with the lungs in Chinese medicine.

One of the key issues is that the Po has almost nothing to do with the mind other than providing the ability to have senses. Discussing it as part of the mind is like worrying about where you park as part of fight tactics in a martial arts competition. Sure you are going to need somewhere to put your car, but is it really directly involved in the problem? If there is a parking lot its taken care of. Yes senses are necessary for thought, but only if you lack one is it worth mentioning.

Hun and Po are much better seen in the Yin-Yang of pre-Heaven and post-Heaven development; where Po is the Yin of pre-Heaven and Hun is the Yang of pre-Heaven. In this way 精 Jing is seen as the Yin of post-Heaven and 神 Shen is seen as the Yang of post-Heaven. So in terms of pre/post-Heaven Hun is Yin to Shen's Yang (because Hun is the Yang of the Yin and Shen is Yang of the Yang); and in this way Po is the Yin to Jing's Yang (because Po is the Yin of the Yin and Jing is the Yin of the Yang). Because each one is a Yin-Yang relationship between each one is a particular Qi, follow?

One of the useful things about the preceding model is that you can see how Po is the most Yin and therefore the least changeable. Shen is the most Yang and therefore the most changeable. Po provides the stable platform of protein synthesis and primate traits. Hun provides the innate aspirations and deep tendencies of emotional character as well as the dreams of life; it is who you wish you were. Jing is the acquired constitution derived from physical behavior and diet. Shen is the acquired personality; who you think you are. So Hun-Po provide the possibility of ourselves that gets acted out in the post-Heaven as the interplay of Shen and Jing (with of course the 真气/regular Qi that we usually refer to being that interplay).

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Ok, so to the mind itself. What we are really talking about is the Shen, which has narrow and broad meanings. Broadly Shen is the whole psycho-emotional system of the self, conscious and unconscious together. Narrowly Shen is the spiritual aspects of the self. The part that feels religious awe or spiritual movement. Lets consider that I'm using the broad meaning only from now on.

Because the heart stores the Shen (in the blood) the two terms were freely used interchangeably throughout the Neijing, though more often 心 heart stands for Shen than vice-versa. Often when the word for heart is used it means Shen broadly.

意 Yi means the reasoning mind but not the emotions. So it is a part of Shen/Xin but not the totality. Because it is a part of the mind and the heart stores the mind (in the blood) sometimes when someone says heart they actually mean thinking mind which is Yi.

情 Qing is emotion and is considered a part of the broader Shen. Very closely associated with the heart its is often what is specifically referred to when the term Xin is used, but it does not overlap Yi at all. Like in Xinyi, this refers to emotions and reason together. In fact Qing is rarely used in discourse and Xin is most often substituted, especially in martial arts and Qigong. If Qing is referred to it is often only in the context of the 七情 Qi Qing or 7 emotions, which are the specific manifestations of Qing.

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There is another model of the mind from the Neijing that is more clear as it describes the reasoning process. It breaks the mind down into 5 pieces. Unfortunately it recycles terminology from other places so you need to recognize that these are further narrowing of meanings. It begins with 意 Yi, and here it means the ability to grasp an object of sense experience. It is the ability of the senses to coalesce around a thing or idea and distinguish it from the background. Like metal in the Wuxing it condenses and takes shape.

Next is 志 Zhi, usually seen as the will, but here it is also the memory. We take the object of sense experience deeply into ourselves and compare it to our sense of self. “Ok I see it, what is it to me?” The Zhi is a deep aspect of self that comes the closest to the truth of who we really are. Often say to students that if they really want to feel Zhi do this experiment with someone they trust. Lay down in a tub of water with your face below the water level and you partner holding your shoulders down. Have them count to ten once you try to start getting up for air, even if (especially if!) you struggle. That thing that comes from your core to get up out of the water... Zhi. It is this aspect of self that the first relation of the outside experience is compared to. Very much like water in the Wuxing as goes down to depths.

思 Si si next and could be translated as contemplation. It is often rendered as over-thinking or pensiveness, but these are just when it becomes pathological. We call this the librarian. The object of sense experience is the new acquisition and now you cross-reference it. This is the spleen and its function to separate clear from turbid. That quality of earth that can place things in just the right spot.

虑 Lu is the next stage and where the intake now becomes the beginning of expression. Lu is the plan that forms based on the object, how it relates to you and the associations it evokes. This is, of course, the quality of the liver and of wood. Purposefully driving from the root to the leaf to strive for the light.

智 Zhi is the wisdom that comes from the completion of the action. I saw this, it meant this to me, it made me think of that, so I did this and... now where am I? In an ideal world this is also satisfaction. That free opening from the center of a joyful result, just like the heart.

While these terms are narrower they do serve to bring a level of precision to what we are talking about. We all have tendencies to focus more on one or another of these stages. Some are thinkers and spend too much time in the associations of 思. Some are driven and get right to the plan with out taking care of the what things really mean. Some are addicted to the satisfaction of the end point.

All of these things can inform us about what kind of people we have become through the way we live our lives. What is the process of alchemy if it not the alignment of our acquired selves with our innate potential? Certainly internal mechanics are great for resolving issues of the tissue (精), but if issues of the mind are not also addressed then I would argue that you are just doing mechanics. Most of the dismissal of the internal-external issue on this board has come down to only the meat, so of course there is little difference. I would argue that internal is about the mind, and if the way you think is not part of your training you are not doing internals now matter what your style.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Bhassler on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:51 pm

Thanks for a great post, Kevin.

Certainly internal mechanics are great for resolving issues of the tissue (精), but if issues of the mind are not also addressed then I would argue that you are just doing mechanics. Most of the dismissal of the internal-external issue on this board has come down to only the meat, so of course there is little difference. I would argue that internal is about the mind, and if the way you think is not part of your training you are not doing internals now matter what your style.


That's only true if you assign your world-view to other people. For myself, I believe that any parsing of the human experience (such as mind and body) is arbitrary and artificial, so if you work with one aspect of the person, you work with them all. In the same way that two people can only understand what the color "red" is by finding a red object that exists in the material world and agreeing that "this is red," the only way to share complex processes is by leveraging that which is commonly visible and can be commonly experienced-- that being the physical manifestation of whatever human endeavors we're involved in. It's not a negation of the invisible, merely a practical focus on that which can be touched or seen.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:50 am

From 萇乃周 Chang Naizhou's (1736 - 1795) writings on Internal Martial Arts:

苌氏武技书 卷一

中气论

中气者,即仙经所谓元阳,医者所谓元气,以其居人身之正中,故武备名曰中气。此气即先天真乙之气,文炼之则为内丹,武炼之则为外丹。然,内丹未有不借外丹而 成者也。盖动静互根,温养合法,自有结胎还元之妙。俗学不谙中气根源,惟务手舞足蹈,欲入元窍,必不能也。人自有生以来,禀先天之神以化气,积气以化精。 当父母构精,初凝于虚危穴內,虚危穴前对脐,后对肾,非上非下,非左非右,不前不后,不偏不倚,正居人一身之当中,称天根,号命门,即《易》所谓太极是 也。真阴真阳,俱藏此中,神实赖之。

此气之灵明,发为五脏之神:心之神、肝之魂、脾之意、肺之魄、肾之精与志。赖此主持,呼吸依之,吸采天地之气,呼出五脏之气。呼自命门而肾而肝而脾而心而 肺,吸自肺而心而脾而肝而肾而命门,十二经十五络之流通系焉。经络者,气血之道路也。人一呼气血流三寸。呼吸定息,共行六寸。人一日一夜凡一万三千五百 息,昼夜行八百一十丈,阳行二十五度,阴亦行二十五度,共计昼夜凡五十度,遍周于身。自脏腑而出于经络,自经络而入于脏腑,从此而生两仪。乃生肾而骨(肾有左阴右阳), 肾属水脏,水能生木。肝属木脏,而生筋;筋附于骨,乃生肝而长筋,木能生火。心属火脏,而主血脉,火能生土。脾属土脏,而生肌肉,土能生金。肺属金脏,而 主皮毛,乃生肺而长皮毛。五脏以次而长,六腑以次而生,是形之成也。因真乙之气,妙合而成,气之聚也,由百骸毕具而寓。一而二,二而一,原不可须臾离也。 武备如此,练形以合外,炼气以实内,坚硬如铁,自成金丹不坏之体,则超凡入圣,上乘可登。若云敌人不惧,尤其小焉者也。

{Chang Family Martial Skills Book Part One

Middle Qi Theory

"Middle (中 Zhong) Energy (Qi)" is also what the Ancient Daoist Classics call "元陽 Yuan Yang" (Original 'Yang'), and TCM calls "Yuan Qi" (Original Energy). Since it resides in the center/ middle of the human body it's called "Zhong Qi" in the Martial Arts.

This type of Energy is our Initial Pre-Heaven Energy. On the Mindful side it's cultivated using Neidan (internal practices). On the Martial side it's cultivated using Weidan (external practices). Thus Internal and External practices are always combined to achieve the cultivation of 'Zhong Qi'.

Using both Movement and Stillness is the basis for generating warmth and building up a solid supply of Energy in the body, which is like depositing money in a bank. Common people don't know of 'Zhong Qi' because they're worried about day to day business and then going out and enjoying their free time. Doing what they desire is like only taking money out of a bank, only having enough money to live day to day.

From birth one is getting Pre-Heaven 神 'Shen' (spirit) from the conversion of Energy (氣 Qi), they have an abundance of Energy from the conversion of 精 'Jing' (essence).

From the mother and father we get 精 'Jing' (essence). It first concentrates at an empty space on the inside behind the navel and in front of the kidneys. No higher, no lower, not left, not right, not too far forward, not too far back, just exactly in the center of the whole body and the center of gravity. It's commonly referred to as the 'Mingmen' (gate of life) but is also called 'Taiji' (point of transformation) in the classics. It's the True Yin and True Yang and is concealed in the Center on which our 神 'Shen' (spirit) depends. This energy is quick and moves like sunlight breaking through the clouds. It gives rise to the 神 'Shen' (spirit) of the Five Organs: Heart 心神 'Xin - Shen' (Mind Spirit), Liver 魂 'Hun', Spleen 意 'Yi', Lung 魄 'Po', Kidney 精 'Jing' (Essence) and 志 'Zhi' (Will). Together these allow the person to live in the world and take in energy from the world and invigorate the Five Organs. Breathing out/ exhaling starts at the 'Mingmen'/ Gate of Life, goes to the kidneys, liver, spleen, heart, then the lungs and out. Inhaling comes into the lungs, to the heart, spleen, liver, kidneys, and back to the Gate of Life/ 'Mingmen'.

The breath and blood spread through Yin and Yang meridians and blood vessels to every part of the body. So from the organs stems the flow to the meridians. From the meridians the energy flows back to the organs, called: 兩儀 Liang Yi (Yin and Yang), and thus is born the two kidneys, and from the kidneys comes bones (the left kidney is Yin, the right is Yang). The Kidney is the Water Organ. Water gives birth to the trees (Wood). The Liver is the Wood Organ and develops the Tendons. The Tendons attach to the bones (kidneys). Thus the Liver is the controller the Tendons. Wood is capable of starting Fire. The Heart is the Fire Organ and controls the blood vessels. Trees burning return wood to the Earth. The Spleen is the Earth Organ and controls the Muscles. From the Earth is mined the precious Metals. The Lung is the Metal Organ and develops the skin and hair. Thus the Lungs are the controller of the exterior opening to the world (skin, inside lining of the lungs). The Five Yin Organs, and their sequence, also control and invigorate the Six Yang Organs. Thus the True Qi invigorates all the Organs, Tissues, and the Bones of the body but rely on one another and the whole will die without each other.

For Martial Development training the outside/ external shape of the body along with the internal health of the body makes the whole body like a hard yet flexible, unbreakable weapon. And it feels like other people are just small clouds when you meet/ [strike] them.}

***

In the Chinese Martial Arts we talk about 意 'Yi' and not so much about 心神 'XinShen' (Mind Spirit) because our mind is our consciousness, which initiates the thought, it's our 意 'Yi' that does all the work to carry out the thoughts. Our 意 'Yi' is our Mind's tool. It's the one aspect we naturally have, (and actually need to have) somatic control of, as it controls the 肌肉 Jirou (skeletal muscles and flesh).

The movement of Skeletal Muscle in turn moves our bones and structure - Bio-Mechanics, called: 力 Li.

The changes and variations in the Flesh; where there is a shifting between 鬆 sōng (relaxation) and 緊 jǐn (tension) is called: 勁 Jin.


靜 Jing/ Stillness:
The 魂 'Hun' has control over the tendons and by using our 意 'Yi' we can only impart a gradual change in the tendons over a period of time. This is done through the use of 'Standing Practices' (Externally Still, Internally Moving) while using our 意 'Yi', controlling our muscle and flesh to be constantly stretching the tendons and extending the tendons outward. Through daily practice the tendons then become reconditioned so that instead of impeding our martial movements they're actually aided by the newly conditioned tendons. The result is a significant increase in the speed that one can move when the muscles aren't being hindered by the tendons.

The 魄 'Po' has autonomic control over the exterior. The opening and closing of the pores of the skin - aka the 'Exiting' and 'Entering' of 'Guardian Energy' (Weiqi), is how the skin contracts and tightens instinctively when one is being hit or struck to protect the interior. During 'Standing Practice' there is movement of Blood and 'Nourishing Energy' (Yingqi) going out the extremities as the 意 'Yi' is activating the muscles and signaling the need for more blood. We can also urge the Spirit and 魄 'Po' by using our Eyes to look at the hands or tips of the fingers, or look to where we want the most blood to move to in the Standing Posture, which is typically the 出手 'Chu Shou' (Outgoing hand) in the Posture. Over time, more and more capillaries are opened up and the skin is further nourished. This increased nourishment of the skin allows the 魄 'Po' to work more efficiently and there is a change at the cellular level of the skin and tissues.


動 Dong/ Movement:
In Moving Practices (Externally and Internally Moving) we are limited by (as Kevin mentioned) our 魄 'Po' - Pre-Heaven' condition. But, when learning a Martial Art, we at first use our imagination combined with our 意 'Yi' so that the 魂 'Hun' (as Kevin mentioned - is who or what we want to be) can gradually impart changes on our 魄 'Po'. When someone is in a car accident the 魄 'Po' takes over control of our body because it's in control of our relationship with the outside world ( or as Kevin wrote - the senses) and it's direct control of the senses happens at a much faster speed than we can think or react. In a fight or dire situation our 魄 'Po' also takes over but through practice and training we can impart a new set of Martial tools for our 魄 'Po' to employ by practicing everyday with intent (意 'Yi'); visualizing and imagining movements and applications in our mind's eye; and ultimately practicing enough so that our 魂 'Hun' imparts a change in our 魄 'Po' at the spiritual level.

This is considered going in reverse(逆 Ni) of the Natural Order of Things, where the Post-Heaven imparts changes and transforms the Pre-Heaven.



.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby TrainingDummy on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:59 pm

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:What is the process of alchemy if it not the alignment of our acquired selves with our innate potential? .... I would argue that internal is about the mind, and if the way you think is not part of your training you are not doing internals now matter what your style.


Forgive if I'm misinterpreting through the lens of my own training, but are you saying that the Shen transforms/aligns the "other" minds? If so, how does it do that? What does a aligned Qing\Yi\yang "soul"\etc. feel like and how is it perceived externally? What are the qualities of the Shen so I would know that I'm resting on the Shen, rather than the "positive" emotions of the Hun?
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:14 pm

Bhassler, sure working the tissue changes the mind, but why then can person with decades of "internal work" still be an interpersonal and emotional mess? It doesn't make buddhas automatically. The issues of pathology that arise in the mind may or may not become resolved if the issues of the tissue are corrected. Your flesh always is what it is, but your mind is what it thinks it is as well. If cognitive issues are not directly addressed explicitly they likely will never resolve. We just create adaptive coping mechanisms which help us blunder through our lives with greater or lesser degrees of stability. The physical training helps, and it just might do the trick, but its still just rolling dice and hoping it works. The argument that changing the physical substrate is enough is really the same one used in pharmacology, I remain unconvinced it is enough.

TrainingDummy, its the exact opposite. The Hun aligns the Shen. The Hun is the truth of who you are. The Shen is the Looney Toons character that you make up for yourself as you struggle with existence. Every psycho-emotional scar that we carry is what takes us out of alignment. Being the most Yang it is the Shen that is the most able to change, but those changes call us to address issues of our own identity. That's what the alchemy is, bringing it all into the same speed and direction. Fixing the Jing is relatively simple, its just training the basics; its powerful because you are maximizing your physical potential (Po), but at a certain level its still just mechanics.

Aligning the Hun and Shen is often an uncomfortable process. Its not enough to get a grip on your temper and be calmer than before you were training, or that sort of thing. Its getting at the deeper experiences that you to build your buttons in the first place. In Chinese medicine there are no positive or negative emotions (fright and oppression 惊忧 are kind of special cases), the issue is one of intensity and duration. When you experience and emotion that has too much intensity or goes on for too long a duration, what lies below that in who you think you are?

When Hun and Shen are aligned the primary experience is happiness. Not shits and giggles, but deep abiding well-being and sense of rightness in your life. There are two ways in which the Hun is considered to really show itself. One in the form of nightmares which occur when a person becomes a person who it completely at odds with their innate potential. The other is the dreams of prophecy or the coming of a spirit teacher in the dream when the voice of the Hun can be heard because there is not the noise of pathology in the Shen.

Going back to the first part of this I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to perpetuate another kind of mind-body dualism. I suspect that in a conversation, rather than these awkward posts, Bhassler and I would probably agree more than not. It is absolutely a continuum from tissue to mind (or spirit if you prefer). I personally could not even have begun to look at these things if I had not done many years of training and physical work. There came a point in push-hands were I needed to understand what I was fighting for when I was getting tossed around. The realization that my emotional coping mechanism where like handles for my partners to get a hold of changed everything for me in martial arts forever.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:17 pm

D_Glenn, thanks, still reading that quote. :)
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby NoSword on Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:54 pm

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:Bhassler, sure working the tissue changes the mind, but why then can person with decades of "internal work" still be an interpersonal and emotional mess? It doesn't make buddhas automatically. The issues of pathology that arise in the mind may or may not become resolved if the issues of the tissue are corrected. Your flesh always is what it is, but your mind is what it thinks it is as well. If cognitive issues are not directly addressed explicitly they likely will never resolve. We just create adaptive coping mechanisms which help us blunder through our lives with greater or lesser degrees of stability. The physical training helps, and it just might do the trick, but its still just rolling dice and hoping it works. The argument that changing the physical substrate is enough is really the same one used in pharmacology, I remain unconvinced it is enough.


+1

Great post.

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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Ralteria on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:07 pm

Arguing that experience is non-divisible yet needs a common denominator to be expressed to an individual is very different than assuming that all issues are solvable via body work. A starting point and common language isn't asking for much really. Way way way less than expecting "internal work" to fix emotional/mental problems.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Bhassler on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:06 pm

Hey Kevin,

I think I more or less agree with you-- I would amend my statement to say that it's the process of working on the physical level, and not necessarily the physical work itself, that provides the opportunity for change. The physical has the distinct and unique advantage of unequivocal feedback, albeit it still requires work to interpret, sometimes. So, key words would be "process" and "opportunity." As far as that goes, in my experience there are as many or more people who have done decades of work on their cognitive issues and are still douchebags as well, which in my mind points to the buddhist notion (that appears elsewhere as well) that in order to truly change you have to die to yourself intellectually, first. Not too many are willing (or desperate enough) to pay that price.

Mostly, when people talk about internal vs. external, they're suggesting a different set of mechanics as if totally differnet structures were involved, and that's where I call bullshit. There are a few of you who speak of the internal as a more or less purely cognitive and/or spiritual element, and I generally don't get involved because I don't have a concrete method of testing it one way or the other. Shooter's the only one I've seen who's ever suggested a concrete method of getting to it, and without that testable element, it's just so much talk. If I (or someone) can't discretely show 'with' and 'without', then how do we know it's practical and will help us in our lives? How do we know it even exists? Again, I'm not denying it, I just don't know how to talk about it meaningfully (although I would love to have someone show the way beyond just the glimmers we've seen thus far).
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Tesshu on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:39 am

Po - senses - lungs. Great!

Thanks everybody for their contributions.

Breathing exercises are one way to extend your senses.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby shawnsegler on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:00 am

The Shen is the Looney Toons character that you make up for yourself as you struggle with existence. Every psycho-emotional scar that we carry is what takes us out of alignment. Being the most Yang it is the Shen that is the most able to change, but those changes call us to address issues of our own identity. That's what the alchemy is, bringing it all into the same speed and direction. Fixing the Jing is relatively simple, its just training the basics; its powerful because you are maximizing your physical potential (Po), but at a certain level its still just mechanics.

Aligning the Hun and Shen is often an uncomfortable process. Its not enough to get a grip on your temper and be calmer than before you were training, or that sort of thing. Its getting at the deeper experiences that you to build your buttons in the first place. In Chinese medicine there are no positive or negative emotions (fright and oppression 惊忧 are kind of special cases), the issue is one of intensity and duration. When you experience and emotion that has too much intensity or goes on for too long a duration, what lies below that in who you think you are?


This stuff is for why the meditation on yin and yang. We start out basically blank, right. My conception of the way our minds work is that it's similar to programming in "basic". Our experiences cue a near infinite number of "if this then that commands" that over time adapt into our Ego/Shen whatever. Now before I go further I want to point out that this is both physical and psychological/spiritual. The physical informs the programming as it were, and the programming will involuntarily control different aspects of the physical. This can be more external in the case of reflexive habits or more internal in situations like when your stress causes the ole corticosteroid dumps. Over time this ends up with tons of habituation that we tend to term people being "a mess". I tend to liken it (I really like computer analogies..so sue me..they're appropriate and they work) with a ton of wires at the back of your computer that you haven't cleaned up in years and are now impossibly tangled. So it is that single pointed meditation breaks through the habitual uncontrolled analytical thought processess. Then meditation on yin and yang entrains the mind to feel both sides of any duality which allows us to follow the cords and eventually untangle them to some extent.

Being someone who's been in a deeply peaceful mental state and having allowed divorce/unemployment etc to knock me back into Kevins longterm practitioner/emotional mess paradigm, I can say that it's not like you do it and it's done and you're a buddha. I think it requires a really longterm intensive investment to make it stick like permanently. I've just got back into the habit of practicing regularly on such things and it's like riding a bike but I wouldn't want to go do the tour de france if you get my drift.

So, yeah...the mental/psychological/spiritual aspect is super important if you want to achieve anything like real control over what's going on with the totality of oneself in a self cultivation sense.


S- throwing 2c down on the thread.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby shawnsegler on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:02 am

Oh, and Kevin...have you ever read any Heidegger? I think it might have relevance to some aspects of your initial post.

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S
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby TrainingDummy on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:23 pm

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:TrainingDummy, its the exact opposite. The Hun aligns the Shen. The Hun is the truth of who you are. The Shen is the Looney Toons character that you make up for yourself as you struggle with existence. Every psycho-emotional scar that we carry is what takes us out of alignment. Being the most Yang it is the Shen that is the most able to change, but those changes call us to address issues of our own identity. That's what the alchemy is, bringing it all into the same speed and direction. Fixing the Jing is relatively simple, its just training the basics; its powerful because you are maximizing your physical potential (Po), but at a certain level its still just mechanics.

Aligning the Hun and Shen is often an uncomfortable process. Its not enough to get a grip on your temper and be calmer than before you were training, or that sort of thing. Its getting at the deeper experiences that you to build your buttons in the first place. In Chinese medicine there are no positive or negative emotions (fright and oppression 惊忧 are kind of special cases), the issue is one of intensity and duration. When you experience and emotion that has too much intensity or goes on for too long a duration, what lies below that in who you think you are?
.


Thanks Kevin, I'll reframe my question.

Experientially then, how does one discern from the Hun (my personal Truth) to the Shen (the truth as I'd like it to be)?

In my own system it's by deep presencing of the the psycho-emotional scars (samskara) that occasionally yield a peak experience. This feels qualitatively different from the simple contentment or happiness of the ordinary mind, and frequently carries a feeling of being eternal and deeply connected to the universe. Repeated enough and you can gradually learn to rest your consciousness on the qualities of the peak experience as a (semi) permanent state.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:46 pm

I fear that what I have written is being read as a "mind only" approach to the concept of internal work. This is not what I'm saying. I have reacted to a stand that has become accepted on this board that internal mechanics is internal and that, since most systems well studied lead to internal mechanics, the idea of 内家 internal school is irrelevant. I am a believer in the power of internal mechanics and I agree that there are many paths to these skills that lie outside the so-called internal styles. To my understanding what makes a style internal is that it includes the training of the mind in an explicit rather than implicit way. Its not a question of "or" its a question of "and."

Back in the 12th century, Chen Yan wrote the Prescriptions on the Premise Diseases Have Three Causes 三因极一病证方论. It lays out external causes (pathogens), internal causes (the seven emotions) and neither (diet, fatigue, parasites, sexual intemperance, etc.). This frame work has been largely been standard thinking since that time. To state it clearly, the internal cause of disease in Chinese medicine is the mind. The 内 in 内因 refers to the mind and emotions. I don't see this any differently in martial arts.

One of the ways that can come up for us in the martial arts is sensitivity training with a partner. When I first touched internal stylists they tossed me around like a doll. All of my previous martial arts training; my strength, speed and fitness, was irrelevant. What I was taught was to look at what was happening when I was trying to win, or succeed, or score a point. What was my desire doing to my body when faced with the stress of another contrary will? It was not easy to begin to become honest with myself about what I was trying to do in push-hands.

In a nutshell that is all there is to any of this, honesty. A brutal honesty with yourself when under stress. What am I unwilling to accept? One teacher I had said "you are trying to conquer me and I am trying to conquer me, that is why you will never win." As Bhassler alluded, you need to kill your own ego first. So, for me at least, the place where I practice this is in the experience of touch.
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Re: The nature of experience and the mind

Postby somatai on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:12 pm

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:I fear that what I have written is being read as a "mind only" approach to the concept of internal work. This is not what I'm saying. I have reacted to a stand that has become accepted on this board that internal mechanics is internal and that, since most systems well studied lead to internal mechanics, the idea of 内家 internal school is irrelevant. I am a believer in the power of internal mechanics and I agree that there are many paths to these skills that lie outside the so-called internal styles. To my understanding what makes a style internal is that it includes the training of the mind in an explicit rather than implicit way. Its not a question of "or" its a question of "and."

Back in the 12th century, Chen Yan wrote the Prescriptions on the Premise Diseases Have Three Causes 三因极一病证方论. It lays out external causes (pathogens), internal causes (the seven emotions) and neither (diet, fatigue, parasites, sexual intemperance, etc.). This frame work has been largely been standard thinking since that time. To state it clearly, the internal cause of disease in Chinese medicine is the mind. The 内 in 内因 refers to the mind and emotions. I don't see this any differently in martial arts.

One of the ways that can come up for us in the martial arts is sensitivity training with a partner. When I first touched internal stylists they tossed me around like a doll. All of my previous martial arts training; my strength, speed and fitness, was irrelevant. What I was taught was to look at what was happening when I was trying to win, or succeed, or score a point. What was my desire doing to my body when faced with the stress of another contrary will? It was not easy to begin to become honest with myself about what I was trying to do in push-hands.

In a nutshell that is all there is to any of this, honesty. A brutal honesty with yourself when under stress. What am I unwilling to accept? One teacher I had said "you are trying to conquer me and I am trying to conquer me, that is why you will never win." As Bhassler alluded, you need to kill your own ego first. So, for me at least, the place where I practice this is in the experience of touch.



Great post
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