Wang Shu Jin question

[lenmccoy]

Wang Shu Jin has always been a fascinating person to me. Back in the early 1980s when I was practicing Kyokushinkai I read Jon Bluming broke his fist punching Wang. Hard not to respect that. Anyway two good book appear to me to contradict a key point in Wang's biographhy. First, the section of Jess O'brien's wonderful Nei Jia Quan: Internal Martial Arts where he interviews Chen Yun Ching says "He was a vegetarian and remained celibate". In B. K. Frantzis' The power of Internal Martial Arts Frantzis quotes Wang as saying," I can eat more than you, I can have more sex than you and I can fight better than you." Maybe something in the word that translates as celibate?

I also would be curious if anyone out there feels vegetarian diets can help martial arts. I believe both Ueshiba OSensei and Gogen Yamaguchi Sensei were vegeterians.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[Daniel]

I think Marnix Wells is one of your best bets here. He was an inner door student to Wang for years. Lazyboxer who posts here knows him, and could probably comment on this.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[JAB]

Many of those stories, regardless of teacher, need to be taken with a grain of salt in the CMA. I have "heard" many things about many teachers, that in fact were just silly BS stories to make themselves appear as something they are not to their students.
JAB

[JessOBrien]

Mr. Wang was said to have been a Taoist priest in the Yi Guan Dao cult. Research more about Yi Guan Dao and you can likely find out a lot more about their sexual and culinary practices! They are indeed an interesting group and have branches all over the world. Some martial artists in northern China were associated with the Yi Guan Dao before WWII and some went to Taiwan afterward.

Jess O

[Areios]

I also would be curious if anyone out there feels vegetarian diets can help martial arts. I believe both Ueshiba OSensei and Gogen Yamaguchi Sensei were vegeterians.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

there are some big mma names that are vegetarians also.

[D_Glenn]

"...Wang then explains the meaning of his name Shujin, literally 'tree gold', by 'establish metal': To establish virtue and the Way's righteousness is Reason's Teaching (lijiao); Metal and stone covenants record my vow.
['Reason's Teaching' is also the name of a sect.] Wang became a vegetarian and practiced meditation and Buddhism, practicing boxing in leisure time after business. In the summer of 1948, Wang passing through Shanghai, Wang escaped from Qin i.e. the communists, by coming to Taiwan, where he first established the Chengming Guoshuguan 'Sincerity Bright National Skills Academy', teaching Xingyi (Hsing I), Ba gua and later also taiji quan."



I've been interested in Wang for some time now, fortunately I had preserved some info about him on my website:

All the links are now dead.

Zhang Zhankui (1859-1940) was also known as Zhang Zhao Dong. He was born in He Chien county in the village of Ho Hung Yan in Hebei Province. He first trained in Mi Tsung Chuang (Lost track style also known as Yen Chen Fist). Later, he studied Xingyi with Liu Chi Lan and obtained a very high level of proficiency. In one story, Chang defeated a tax collector trying to exploit the villagers. From his exploits, he gained the reputation of being a straight man and is known as a "people hero". Later on he left the village and found a job catching criminals in Tianjin. It was during this time he first met and studied with Chen Ting Hua. Chen later introduce him to his teacher Dong Hai Chuan and Zhang later studied directly with Dong. *

Wang Shu-chin was born in 1904 as the sixth son in a family of farmers living in a village about 32 km from Tianjin in northern China. His older brothers were content to farm, but Wang wanted to be part of a bigger world. So, with his parents' permission, he left home when he was 14 years old and traveled to Tianjin seeking fame and fortune. There he found work as an apprentice in an international trading company.

By the time of his arrival in Tianjin, Wang was already, as his student Wang Fu-lai puts it, "a man of impressive size and unusual physical strength." He was also very interested in martial arts and religion and began to search for martial arts instruction. By chance one day, a senior student of the famous martial arts master Zhang Zhao-dong came to the business where Wang worked. This chance meeting led to the then 18-year-old Wang studying under Zhang.

Under Zhang's instruction, Wang learned the two arts for which he would later become famous: pa kua chang and hsing yi ch'uan. Pa kua chang means "eight diagram palms" and refers to the eight core diagrams which make up the I-Ching (Book of Changes), one of the most important books of classical Chinese philosophy.

The practice of pa kua chang consists of moving around in a circle while performing eight different martial arts techniques which use the palms to strike an opponent. Each of these eight techniques corresponds to one of the eight fundamental diagrams in the I-Ching. Maneuvering around to the side or back of the opponent, a practitioner strikes using one of the eight techniques. The art also emphasizes throwing the opponent -- much like in judo -- as well as various arm locks.

Wang could perform pa kua chang with dizzying speed, rapidly turning back and forth around the circle. Despite his size, he was able to move with incredible speed and agility, which he attributed to his study of the art form. **

[From EmptyFlower forum archives]
It seems that the two main representations of Zhang Zhaodong’s bagua in Europe and the US are those taught by Jiang Rongqiao and Wang Shujin. I have only seen Jiang’s form once and know little about his basic training, emphasis etc so can’t really comment –maybe that’s your area? The main components taught in Wang’s bagua (as taught by my teacher I should add since there slight differences between the different disciples) are:

1. Standing post (zhanzhuang)
2. Single movement practice (danlian) alone and with partner and stretching/strengthening exercises
3. Circle walking with static upper body postures
4. Fixed step linking palms - eight palms changes aimed to train the eight basic energies/powers/techniques (tui, tuo, dai, ling, ban ,kou, pi,jin) [push, lift, carry, lead, move, capture, chop, enter.]
5. The flowing dragon rambling body palm (long xing you shen zhang) which is fluid step, faster, continuous and so forth – it follows the principle of‘…one gives rise to two, two to three, three to the ten thousand things…’ (yi sheng er er sheng san san sheng wanwu –) idea found in the Dao Dejing in that it goes from very simple to very complex, adding complexity in each change.
6. Bagua ‘push hands’
7. Application, including fixed but heavy emphasis on free sparring and fighting
8. Weapons (double sword and staff)

Let me begin by saying that my impression of Master Wang’s teaching is that he was very direct and taught by application and fighting. Forms, for instance, were merely a way of developing certain powers, fluidity and qi in preparation for fighting. Wang Shujin used very few techniques when fighting and those he used were direct and extremely powerful.He was also left handed which surprised many of his opponents as left handedness is most often ‘corrected’ in China in youth as it is considered outside the norm. Even if many fighters develop both sides in their practice, most have a strong side and a weak side, the strong side being the right.Wang’s most powerful side was his left. His forms reflected his philosophy of simplicity and basics and are, compared to other bagua forms, very simple and sometimes bland in external appearance .They are, however, also very powerful and practical. Students were taught by asking how to fight/defend themselves against such and such an attack and by fighting other schools of martial arts in free fighting tournaments. Wang encourage exploration of the basic principles of fighting and was not a big proponent of fixed two-person sets.

Wang taught all three internal arts to students, beginning with Taiji, then xingyi and finally bagua. In this sense he followed Dong Haichuan’s method of teaching bagua only to those who already had martial arts skills, and also his own teacher’s progression from xingyi to bagua. I’ve seen some films of Wang’s bagua application and it certainly had a xingyi flavour to it. It was direct and without superfluous movements. This was not only a result of his training but also his physical size which made direct techniques and applications more natural to him than more twisting, coiling and evasive etc.

I won’t go into the taiji and xingyi here but rather concentrate on bagua and the basics as taught by wang. Please keep in mind, though, that taiji and xingyi were taught first before bagua and thus may be considered kind of a basis for wang’s bagua teaching, or at least a foundation all students who studied his bagua had.

Wang’s bagua system starts students from stillness in zhan zhuang postures, first double weighted and later 60/40 weighted. These are aimed at building roots, relaxation, calm and qi. The second component, and one of the most important ones in terms of power and martial application I think, is the practice of single movements. These consist of palm, fist and leg exercises aimed at developing gong li, or power. They are practiced first standing in 60/40 posture and then with moving steps on a straight line. For example, left piercing palm (chuan zhang) will be practiced 60 repetitions on the left and 60 reps on the right. There is an assortment of these exercises such as piercing, slapping, shaking and the five elements of xingyi and so forth. Especially in the beginning, I used to feel my arms were about to fall off and my legs were like cooked spaghetti (not al dente!). These exercises also build coordination and unity of the upper and lower body. We call it jiu gong gui yi which means nine palaces return to one point, meaning the body acts as one unit and all power is concentrated in any given technique, point. The mental aspect of this training is very important. Wang delivered tremendously painful and dangerous strikes and my teacher is the same. I was once hit by him so badly I felt all my internal organs had been crushed. It wasn’t serious though and after sitting down for a while, everything was fine but I did think I needed to be rushed to hospital. My teacher did not use full force in any way and I hope he never does. Anyway, jiu gong gui yi is an important part of Wang’s practice and all the single movements are aimed at developing that kind of coordinated, unified power for application. There are also single movements for kicking, mainly low outer or inner kicks, the most common being at the end of Wang’s single palm change with the first bai step. Again, Wang’s physique did not encourage anything higher but kicking knees and shins is the most effective anyway and it doesn’t affect your balance or defense either!

What is important to remember with the single movements is that they are not used in isolation but rather combined in numerous ways. Thus, the basics are extremely simple and straight-forward and also very thoroughly built in to the practitioner. The real challenge is combining them creatively and effectively in practice! Nevertheless, the foundation for that level is established through the zhanzhuang and danlian.

Which brings us to the circle walking. Again, Wang emphasised a natural gate rather than toe first like many practioners do. We practice the circle walking in a circle, in an eight crossing through the middle of the circle, and through the nine palaces of the Luoshu. The eight is important in terms of application as it allows for extremely fast deflection and circling to the outside of the opponent. Wang’s circle walking is done from heel to toe,with the inner foot’s toes at an angle inward (bai) and the outer foot toes also slightly inward (kou). It’s a very natural, relaxed gate and, in my opinion, the most useful in sparring. I feel that the more natural it is the more likely you are to use it in practice. We practice walking at a middle level most of the time although when practicing the rambling body palm it is often done with a high, mobile posture in order to allow lightning fast changes and movement.

The linking form, as I mentioned earlier, is designed to develop certain energies. The single palm change contains in itself four of them: tui tuo dai ling and is therefore, as we know , the basis for all other bagua application. But the value of the single palm change really goes beyond that. It helps develop two important bagua fighting principles: evasion and palm change (meaning palm change in relation to an opponents attack – that is getting either inside or outside an opponent’s ‘doors’ by quickly switching palms ). Wang’s single palm change is extremely practical and therefore is less coiling than some other systems. It basically consists of three stages: 1) covering (kou) which can be seen in the crouching tiger posture, 2) the beginning of the palm change which consists of forward movement and tui +tuo and 3) the actual change of palms. This change can be more properly seen in the rambling body palm. In the linking palms it is more static and difficult to see. ***

*--from http://www.geocities.com/ottawakungfu/250Bagau002A.htm
** -- from http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20020 ... 219f1.html
*** -- http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html

[from an article by Marnix Wells (PhD - SOAS) -- from http://www.apittman.com/index.html?Arti ... tm~content ]

... [Accounts of the origins of Ba gua itself, and of Wang Shujin's distinctive style of it, are contradictory. Dong Haichuan (1796-1880) is universally credited as the founder of current Ba gua lineages, but these are far from uniform. Sun Lutang, who combined it with taiji quan and Xingyi (Hsing I), was the first to publish a book on the subject. Sun Lutang and Wu Tunan indicate that Dong was expert at Lohan Boxing, a Shaolin form which he first taught at Prince Su's palace. Xiang Kairan actually states that Dong came from the Shaolin Temple. It is possible that Dong was also influenced by the Ba-pan 'Eight Circling' boxing of Anhui. However, evidence of earlier styles using the name 'ba-gua', the eight trigrams used to mark compass points, does not prove a connection with Dong Haichuan's art. The style practiced in Taizhong by both Wang Shujin and Chen Panling is not a style I have seen outside Taiwan, though both studied with famous masters in Hebei.

Wang's preface to his 1978 book 'Ba gua Connected Palms', which he inscribed for me, relates anecdotes of Dong Haichuan, reputed founder of Ba gua zhang. Here is my synopsis of Wang's own narrative. Dong is said by some to have been born in (Hebei) Wen'an county and by others in Tongzhou. Becoming addicted when young to gambling, Dong ran away to Peking (Beijing) and then roamed south, reaching Mt Émei, holy mountain of Sichuan (bordering Tibet). There he met two Daoists Gujizi and Shang Daoyuan who taught him Ba gua circling and corrected his posture, telling Dong to circle a tree until the tree began to chase him, inviting him to help himself to rice from a store and water from the stream. After seven years hard practice, he had worn a path three foot deep, and suddenly felt the tree start to lean towards him. He reported this to his teachers who were delighted and taught him eight words on revolving, telling him to circle two trees [n.b. to practice the 'dragon swimming' double circle] as before. After two years, the trees chased him. For two years more they taught him palm law changes and weapons. Finally, he was told to go home, and compete at all martial arenas along the way. Since Dong always won, the reputation of Ba guazhang began to spread among the 'rivers and lakes' (jianghu), meaning the social underworld and martial arts circles.

On reaching home, Dong found his parents were already dead. At Peking, Dong by day roamed Heaven's Bridge market, by night sleeping in Heaven's Altar Park, where the emperor performed annual sacrifices. One day the martial instructor, from Prince Beile [n.b. Beile is just a Manchu title for 'Lord']'s palace, Hou Zhenyuan, nicknamed 'Shaker of East City' came to the Altar. Seeing Dong's rough dress but ruddy face and bright eyes, Hou spoke with him, and challenged him to a duel on a 6 by 8 foot mat. Dong expelled Hou from the mat three times in succession. Hou then introduced Dong to work in Beile's palace, where Dong became martial instructor to the Prince. As Dong's fame spread challengers came from far and wide but were always defeated. Thieves stole objects from the palace, leaving notes for Dong to come and win them back. This continued for ten years. Eventually Dong, after implication in a case, was punished by castration, becoming known to all as 'Dong Old Eunuch'. He chose, as successor to his art, Yanjing Cheng, 'Spectacles Cheng' [Cheng Tinghua d. 1900], who used to prepare glasses prescriptions for the palace. Dong died at ninety. Disciples erected his tomb stone outside the city's West Gate. [n.b. After the 'Cultural Revolution', Dong's tomb was rebuilt in the Western Hills, where it remains an object of pilgrimage.]

Wang's preface describes his youthful progress of study, under three famous teachers, and his career of teaching in Taiwan and Japan. Again, in what follows, I reproduce Wang's exact written testimony, confining my own comments strictly within brackets. In 1923, age 18, Wang entered the school of famed Zhang Zhaodong (Zhang Zhankui 1860-1940, third generation student of Dong Haichuan) to study Ba gua and Xingyi (Hsing I). [cf. Smith: Masters and Methods p75: "Wang replied that he had studied under Chang from 1929 to 1938.”] From 1924 to 1925, Wang concentratedly studied hunyuanzhuang 'All-round Stance', a style of zhanzhuang 'post-standing' meditation, under 'teacher junior-uncle' Wang Xianzhai (presumably Wang Xiangzhai 1890-1963, founder of Dacheng quan (Yiquan or I Chuan), who put standing before forms. Sawai Kenichi in Tokyo used it to develop Taikiken.). From 1929 to 1930, Wang studied under 'teacher senior-uncle' Xiao Haibo, aged over 90, who had trained on Mt Luojia, fifty li from Mt Émei in Sichuan. [n.b. Wang told me that Xiao Haibo used to walk the circle while holding iron balls.]

Finally, Wang remarks, without further explanation: "I had originally studied a Si-lian quan 'Four Connections boxing' form, whose hands and movements identical to Chen taiji." After coming to Taiwan, in 1951 Wang chanced to meet Chen Junfeng [i.e. Chen Panling] in Taizhong (where the provincial government was first based). Comparing notes, they experimented to create a 'Chen style' of taiji quan.

[n.b. Wang Shujin acknowledged to me that Chen Panling had taught him taiji quan and the 24 walking-stick; but claimed in return he had taught Xingyi (Hsing I) and Ba gua to Chen Panling. Wang appears to equate 'Chen style' from the 'Chen Village', (Henan) Chen Jiagou, with Chen Panling's own composite brand of taiji quan. Authentic Chen style taiji quan was virtually unknown in Taiwan then, and it is unlikely that Wang knew much about it. Robert Smith (Martial Musings 1999 p255) relates how even Rose Lee, who grew up under a famous master in Peking, told how she, while fleeing from Japanese c.1940, had observed Henan villagers practicing taiji quan, but seemed unaware of Chenjiagou's very existence. Indeed, Chenjiagou was not opened up to the world before the late 1980s. In 1983, when a Shaolin Temple visit still required a police permit, I was denied access there. My first trip to Chenjiagou, several years later, took eight hours on mud roads from Zhengzhou!]

Wang then explains the meaning of his name Shujin, literally 'tree gold', by 'establish metal': To establish virtue and the Way's righteousness is Reason's Teaching (lijiao); Metal and stone covenants record my vow.
['Reason's Teaching' is also the name of a sect.] Wang became a vegetarian and practiced meditation and Buddhism, practicing boxing in leisure time after business. In the summer of 1948, Wang passing through Shanghai, Wang escaped from Qin i.e. the communists, by coming to Taiwan, where he first established the Chengming Guoshuguan 'Sincerity Bright National Skills Academy', teaching Xingyi (Hsing I), Ba gua and later also taiji quan. Altogether he had several hundred students from all over Taiwan, of whom some regrettably gave up. In the autumn of 1959, Wang traveled to Japan where an old friend Wu Botang introduced him to Toyama Izumi, president of Nippon Jodo Association [n.b. spiritual art of stick-fighting], where Wang was invited to be instructor of taiji quan, also teaching Xingyi (Hsing I) and Ba gua, for eight years. In 1963 at the invitation of the Gojuryu Karate Association's Tokyo Chuoku karate dojo, Wang took a disciple [i.e. Zhang Yizhong] from Taiwan as assistant teacher, and taught for two years. In 1966, Wang made his third trip to Japan, to teach for two years at Tokyo Minatoku's Korinji temple. By 1976, Wang had made altogether 8 trips to Japan, teaching over 1200 students, including overseas Chinese, Japanese and other nationals visiting Japan, of whom there were karate, judo and aikido students, some of over ten years' experience. Wang reckoned his student total, including Taiwan, at over 1800 students. Wang concludes that, of the three 'internal arts', taiji quan symbolizes the virtue of humanity [n.b. I extrapolate this word, which appears to have been inadvertently omitted]; Xingyi (Hsing I): courage; and Ba gua: wisdom.

Wang's 'Ba gua Connective Palms' system consists of 8 part movements, as follows:

Single Change Palm
Double Change Palm
Kite Flies to Heaven
Yellow Dragon Turns Body
White Snake Spits Out
Great Roc Spreads Wings
White Ape Presents Peaches
Whirlwind Palms.

Wang used to say that the form is fixed by tradition, but its variations are infinite. In other words, once the basic system is mastered, it is up to each individual by his own experience to adapt and interpret it, while retaining the essential structure. Wang lists eight key-words that encompass the energies involved. Presumably they are intended to correspond to the eight words supposedly taught to Dong Haichuan by the two Daoists on Mt Émei. Wang links them individually to the eight trigrams and also to the eight movements. Yet the connection seems far-fetched and unconvincing to me. Wang did not speak of these matters when teaching. The eight words, which I find may be better understood in pairs, are: tuituo dailing, bankòu pijin. I translate them as: push-raise, carry-lead, shift-hook, chop-advance. [[insert-- In yin style they would be translated as push, lift, carry, lead, move, capture, chop, enter.]] In this way, I would interpret them as: deflect, draw in, pin down, and counter attack, analogous to the four phases of taiji quan pushing hands: ward-off, pull-back, squeeze and press.

Bibliography: Wang Shujin; Wang Fulai, Wang Kangmin ed.: Ba gua Lianhuan zhang, 'Ba gua Connective palms', private, Taizhong, 1978. ] ...

.

[johnwang]

I also would be curious if anyone out there feels vegetarian diets can help martial arts.

I have been a vegetarian for 25 years. I can move faster, jump higher, and with better endurance. The nice thing about it is my blood pressure, body fat, and cholesterol are all low, and I don't have diabetes and heart problem. The only draw back is I can't build big muscle as I use to have. Since I don't compete any more, that's not a issue for me. It's easier for me to be a vegetarian because I just don't like meat since I was a kid (I do believe that in my previous life, I was a monk).

[lazyboxer]

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that consumption of red meat may be harmful to health, particularly when taken to excess, while at the other extreme of the carnivorous spectrum, eating fish is good for you. Ethical considerations apart, I don't believe dietary choices have much bearing on your martial art ability, except from a nutritional standpoint. My own belief is that red meat tends to increase aggression, which isn't a good thing for a fighter - you need to keep a cool head to be successful in combat.

As far as Wang's so-called celibacy is concerned, I think you can take that with a large pinch of salt. My late cousin, a Catholic nun, made a pretty distinction between celibacy (the unmarried state) and chastity (the asexual state). Wang took no wife while in Taiwan, so at least in that respect he remained celibate.

[Daniel]

Thanks for putting that up, DGlenn. Interesting read. To the OP, I would perhaps suggest other sources as more precise on the subject of WSJ than Bruce Frantzis. Marnix Wells has some text on his website (maybe it´s same as yours, DGlenn):

http://www.marnixwells.com/


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[SnowLeopard]

Nice thread about Wang Shujin.

I have a question here which I want to direct towards the experts here. I am not opening a new thread just for the question because it doesn't need one.

My question is related to smoking. Since last month, due to stress, as I am just out of college and looking for suitable job, I got into a little bit of smoking. On an average, I smoke around 3-4 cigarettes everyday. Does smoking reduce martial arts ability? I mean , of course, not smoking would be a good idea because body is physically fit. But I am asking this because among the many grandmasters I have come across, many of them were smokers. In fact, some of them were addicted to opium too.

As for eating meat, I actually want to eat as much meat as possible now because I have lost weight (presumably due to my smoking habit) and want to regain my older physique.

[kenneth fish]

Wang Shujin and my teacher Zhang junfeng were good friends. Wang came to Taiwan under the auspices of fellow Yi Guandao members (of which Master Zhang was one) and taught martial arts and conducted business as a means of both garnering income and as a cover for his religious activities (Yi Guandao was a repressed, illegal sect in both Nationalist and Communist China). Master Zhang helped Master Wang set up his school in Taiwan, and also took challenges on his behalf (for more on that, read the Bagua Journal sections on both teachers). Master Wang and Master Zhang were both vegetarians, but their vegetarianism included consumption of fish, eggs, and cultured dairy products (Master Zhang was particularly fond of a fresh water fish found in Taiwan that seemed to be a kind of trout). When I was living in Taichung, I knew that Master Wang had a young girl living with him who both trained with him and shared his sleeping quarters. From all accounts, she was one of (if not the) best Bagua students he produced.

[lazyboxer]

She was presumably the young girl Marnix remembers living in Wang's house,to whom he was teaching baguajian at the time.

He also had a housekeeper, who atypically was the person who organized Wang's funeral (normally the #1 disciple would have done it.) After the ceremony, she invited Marnix, with Allan Pittman and Barry Wicksman, to the graveyard up in the mountains for the burial. The inscription on Wang's stele stated it had been raised by his èr fáng 二房 (literally second [bed]room, meaning second wife).

Wang also showed Marnix a photograph of his first wife and children, who had remained in Tianjin. Polygamy was illegal in Taiwan, so remarriage would have been difficult if not impossible in such cases.

Make no mistake: Master Wang liked the ladies, as can be seen from his delighted expression in the following photo taken by Marnix's lovely Chinese girlfriend!

[jonathan.bluestein]

Hahahaha, nice observation. I also noticed it a few months ago. I thought I'd just take Frantzis' word on it. I didn't like Chen Yun Ching interview, it was my least favourite in the whole book. Also, watching his stuff on Youtube, I didn't like that either. I also find it hard to believe a Vegetarian can get so fat :-P

D_glenn & Kenneth - thanks for the info...

With all due respect for Wang, who was by all accounts a very accomplished martial artist... The man was obese to the point he just couldn't do lots of stuff other martial artists could (externally, that is). You just can't justify someone being THAT fat. I don't like all that talk about how "his natural size had him prefer this or that technique". Say it like it is! The guy was wayyyy too fat (later in his life), and couldn't do some stuff well because of it! He could still fight well for sure, but he lacked the ability to move in an agile manner compared to other martial artists. It's not a good or a bad thing, since he COULD fight - it's just fact. The're also nothing "natural" about being obese...
I think it's bizarre how later generations in his lineage took his bodily adjustments and made them a part of their art. Wang was doing a fat man's IMA cause that's what suited him. Now you see a lot of skinny people doing a fat man's IMA. Just take a look at their Santi - that's a fat man's Santi! The lower hand is actually covering the non-existing enormous Qi belly XD

Fat man's Xing Yi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqwMt4ON ... re=related

By comparison, we have Hong Yixiang was was also a very large man... But you don't see Luo Dexiu going around doing a fat man's Xing Yi! As recall recall, in Hong's case, although he favoured some techniques that suited his size better, his agility wasn't as limited.

[Tesshu]

I don't think Wang is "fat" as in "obese". Look at his arms and legs. They don't look fat to me more like lots of flesh/tissue. There is just the large belly.

[RobT]

In general I've heard this comment (students copied the external frame which was shaped by Wang's um shape) before, and quite often I agree.

However, with the particular reference to san ti, it might be worth knowing that Wang was quite specifc in instructing that the bottom hand wraps around with thumb points to the dantian (for both san ti and the bagu circling posture).

RT