Anatomical structure of dantien & ....

[dspyrido]

Have created another thread on the master-student relationship & lifted a few quotes.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22057

Dantien away.

[dspyrido]

Dan wrote:

So...
What about, upper abdomen?
Back and front together?
Side of dantian?
how about touching a teacher ANYWHERE..and feeling unusual forces going on?
How about...
everywhere at the same time?

Yes to all of the above for the teachers I mentioned - however activity in other areas (say, the upper abdomen, the back, the flanks) goes by separate and distinct terminology. For example, my Shaolin teachers referred to movement in the upper abdomen (or in a great circle following the general outline of the large intestine) as "zou changzi". Lam Sang could make a visible lump appear on his flank and seem to travel to his back or up his side (zou rouqiu) and so on. All of them had the feeling of the entire body expanding and moving (sometimes as if the body were being inflated, other times as if a wave were passing through them). They almost all called these demonstrations of "neigong" - but if one was to ask them about "the dantian" they would invariably refer to the lower abdomen.

I am very interested Is there any way to anatomically explain how a lump would appear and move around (i.e. is it a blob of muscle? Which muscle would it be?)? My minimal learning only really dealt with the dantian at all - which I guess would be a prerequisite for the other "blob moving"...

Interesting about the terminology, too, thanks!

Dantien! Chi!

Seriously no idea on how to generate a visible discrete ball on ones flank so I'm bumping this one. Using the core do to some interesting combat supporting things is real and they sometimes stretch the bounds of what mere mortals can do. But the closest I came to the "internal egg/pill/ball" was related to the taoist 100 day exercise. No demos though but the explanation was that when completed the ball could be directly felt & was visible to an observer. I was prone to believing the guy talking about it as I had seen some pretty wacky stuff from him.

Wondering if the two interrelated?

[edededed]

That reminds me, so in addition to my question above, I also wonder...

Is the muscle/rubber/whatever mass that moves around "dantian" and the energetic/electric/heat/whatever ball "dantian" one and the same?
Or perhaps slightly separate, but related, concepts?

[kenneth fish]

It is willful control over local vasculature and muscle. The Abbot Heng Yueh, who taught me Buddhism and some of his Lohan Shaolin system, could make his forearms flush with circulation and expand at will. The late master Lam Sang's demonstration (which I have seen replicated by others) is a similar phenomena. As Dan said, nothing is actually rotating or crawling beneath the skin - but there is successive activation of muscle groups and greater than normal control over autonomic functions at a local level.

[windwalker]

my own teacher also can do this.
its quite strange, he made what seemed to be like a small ball
appear on his back. It was quite strange to see, and feel.

never mentioned it before feeling it would not be believed.
seems like others have also had this experience.

I would agree with the localized muscular control although
he could do it and cause a person to be popped back if they
happened to be be touching the spot he made it appear on.
It was almost as if something inside was hitting the inner body
producing an effect on the out side that one could see.

[Doc Stier]

Having personally witnessed such skills demonstrated by Lam Sang, Gin-Foon Mark, Lee Wing-Wah, and a few other rare gung-fu masters, it is clearly evident that where genuine high level internal development is concerned, sometimes fact is indeed stranger than fiction!

[edededed]

Muscle and vasculature... I guess it would not make sense if it was the fat moving around...

But if muscles are mainly about contraction - I wonder how the muscles can engage in a way to form balls, expand, etc... although I suppose comprehensive control over the muscle groups can make this happen in a sort of illusory way?

I've always been interested in weird things like this - this is the kind of thing I hope to be able to do someday, whether there are or are not any applications to it

[Michael]

I've always been interested in weird things like this - this is the kind of thing I hope to be able to do someday, whether there are or are not any applications to it

I'm sure 10,000 hours of diligent, mindful practice under the supervision of someone who can personally demonstrate that skill will be sufficient.

[edededed]

Yeah - the difficulty is finding someone who thinks, "Gee, I really want this person to get this stuff" as opposed to "Well - maybe I'll just give him a few hints, and see if he discovers the process for himself."

[Michael]

I don't know, Ed. I'm just a very basic qigong teacher and I've yet to find a single student in 11 years who will even do the world's easiest qigong every day for a week. I would be extremely thrilled to find someone to whom I could give some useful and beneficial knowledge; I would be on helper's high for a month for sure, but it's as rare to find a good student as it is to find a master. I guess they're both from the same small demographic of weirdos who can see in the present the potential benefit of something along the time continuum becoming reality in the future. Maybe I should solicit students at architects conferences, haha?

[edededed]

Weirdos for sure, ha!

Unfortunately, weirdos come in as many flavors as there are mollusc species, or maybe more. If we just made a weirdos conference (or an architects conference), I would be surprised if even one qigong fan showed up at all.

This is why we particular weirdos get our thrills by posting on discussion boards like this one (the Internet was really positive for needle-in-the-haystack weirdos like us).

[Michael]

^^ LOL!!

[mixjourneyman]

Just to take the conversation back on track from its current derailing-
There are three ways to understand Dantian
- physical
-medical
-spiritual (for lack of a better word)

dantian as a word means "elixir field."
In the most literal sense in Daoism, the elixir field is believed to be an energy that occurs at all places in the universe at all times. Early traditions of Daoism were somewhat vague about what dantian is, and said that it could exist in the body in any place at any time. later traditions had various ideas, but I think the most standard one is that the most important dantian in the body are lower, middle, and upper- with the lower dantian usually being the focal point of cultivation, at least at the start of practice. Some simple practices, such as ones coming from the southern school even advocate simply focusing on the dantian and virtually nothing else (over simplifying here, but basically it is like this).
In terms of Chinese medicine, Dantian again is a similar energetic concept, but instead of being used for meditation practice, is used for medical practice. Medicine and Daoism have quite a lot of cross over, but aren't exactly the same thing by any stretch.
Physically speaking, in martial arts, as Dr.Fish already pointed out, the Dantian is considered to be a place in the body.
By one rationalle, dantian can be viewed as the function of a series of muscles in the lower abdomen- but this is something which many people (myself included) get a bit confused at the outset of practice. The dantian should not be treated as seperate from the waist in the early stages of practice. If the dantian is to move, the waist must also move, there must be tension and relaxation in various different places. For most persons studying internal gongfu, it would be better to forget the dantian as anything other than a focal point of balance in the body. This area is only really moveable if the practitioner has a really good feeling of the area and can already fulfil all other physical requirements of his or her selected martial art.
At a much higher level of practice, the dantian starts to match up with daoist and medical ideas to a great extent.
Taiji especially has many methods to create an empty dantian. The meaning of this is that the dantian area will feel as if it has no substance when it is pushed against. At the early stages of development, this is controlled mainly by the hips, but later one, if the stomach relaxes enough, it can actually be mostly from the effect of softening around a push, rather than turning largely. The real ability to use the dantian in martial arts practice comes from being able to relax the stomach fully and keep the breathing calm.
The reason why this has a large cross over with daoism is that the cultivation of dantian also becomes about mental relaxation and the feeling of emptiness.
Daoists view the lower dantian area as an essentially empty place into which the mind can be directed as a way to allow the essence of the body to awaken and transform into qi, which circulates and nourishes the body.
Yesterday while reading the book xing ming gui zhi, I came across the idea that the jing and qi are considered ancestral energies, but the spirit itself is slowly derived from emptiness- or more directly put, the essence creates qi, which is an inate feature of the body. the essence is pre birth and the qi is post birth, but the spirit is something which is created gradually in the body through the cultivation of emptiness.
In terms of martial arts practice, it is practical to say, the use of the muscles of the dantian is somewhat akin to jing- somewhat raw, powerful, and being a door to higher levels of practice. the refinement of the feeling in the dantian as well as clearly being able to use relaxation, breathing and calm in a martial arts situation is somewhat akin to qi, in that this is the point at which the movement from the dantian can start circulating naturally and become useful. Finally, the cultivation of emptiness and the ability to use the dantian in a truly free way is somewhat akin to the development of spirit, as it is something that becomes slightly ephemeral and not perfectly clear.
On the other hand, what I just said is totally just like my opinion and stuff....
What I'm trying to say is this: eventually, the concepts of daoism and martial arts meet and the practice of daoism can greatly enhance one's martial arts practice and vice versa.
I've already said too much, so I'll leave it at that.

[I am...]

Just to take the conversation back on track from its current derailing-
There are three ways to understand Dantian
- physical
-medical
-spiritual (for lack of a better word)

dantian as a word means "elixir field."
In the most literal sense in Daoism, the elixir field is believed to be an energy that occurs at all places in the universe at all times. Early traditions of Daoism were somewhat vague about what dantian is, and said that it could exist in the body in any place at any time. later traditions had various ideas, but I think the most standard one is that the most important dantian in the body are lower, middle, and upper- with the lower dantian usually being the focal point of cultivation, at least at the start of practice. Some simple practices, such as ones coming from the southern school even advocate simply focusing on the dantian and virtually nothing else (over simplifying here, but basically it is like this).
In terms of Chinese medicine, Dantian again is a similar energetic concept, but instead of being used for meditation practice, is used for medical practice. Medicine and Daoism have quite a lot of cross over, but aren't exactly the same thing by any stretch.
Physically speaking, in martial arts, as Dr.Fish already pointed out, the Dantian is considered to be a place in the body.
By one rationalle, dantian can be viewed as the function of a series of muscles in the lower abdomen- but this is something which many people (myself included) get a bit confused at the outset of practice. The dantian should not be treated as seperate from the waist in the early stages of practice. If the dantian is to move, the waist must also move, there must be tension and relaxation in various different places. For most persons studying internal gongfu, it would be better to forget the dantian as anything other than a focal point of balance in the body. This area is only really moveable if the practitioner has a really good feeling of the area and can already fulfil all other physical requirements of his or her selected martial art.
At a much higher level of practice, the dantian starts to match up with daoist and medical ideas to a great extent.
Taiji especially has many methods to create an empty dantian. The meaning of this is that the dantian area will feel as if it has no substance when it is pushed against. At the early stages of development, this is controlled mainly by the hips, but later one, if the stomach relaxes enough, it can actually be mostly from the effect of softening around a push, rather than turning largely. The real ability to use the dantian in martial arts practice comes from being able to relax the stomach fully and keep the breathing calm.
The reason why this has a large cross over with daoism is that the cultivation of dantian also becomes about mental relaxation and the feeling of emptiness.
Daoists view the lower dantian area as an essentially empty place into which the mind can be directed as a way to allow the essence of the body to awaken and transform into qi, which circulates and nourishes the body.
Yesterday while reading the book xing ming gui zhi, I came across the idea that the jing and qi are considered ancestral energies, but the spirit itself is slowly derived from emptiness- or more directly put, the essence creates qi, which is an inate feature of the body. the essence is pre birth and the qi is post birth, but the spirit is something which is created gradually in the body through the cultivation of emptiness.
In terms of martial arts practice, it is practical to say, the use of the muscles of the dantian is somewhat akin to jing- somewhat raw, powerful, and being a door to higher levels of practice. the refinement of the feeling in the dantian as well as clearly being able to use relaxation, breathing and calm in a martial arts situation is somewhat akin to qi, in that this is the point at which the movement from the dantian can start circulating naturally and become useful. Finally, the cultivation of emptiness and the ability to use the dantian in a truly free way is somewhat akin to the development of spirit, as it is something that becomes slightly ephemeral and not perfectly clear.
On the other hand, what I just said is totally just like my opinion and stuff....
What I'm trying to say is this: eventually, the concepts of daoism and martial arts meet and the practice of daoism can greatly enhance one's martial arts practice and vice versa.
I've already said too much, so I'll leave it at that.

Compare notes with Dan/Bodywork or someone similar in person and then see if what you just typed still holds water in your viewpoint.

[mixjourneyman]

at the risk of sounding uneducated- why?