Xingyi's Dragon xing

[nicklinjm]

Just been thinking about Xingyi's dragon shape recently. The line that I study (Song) has a relatively simple 1-2 move dragon xing, but I have seen that in some lines (for example Shang Ji's mixed Hebei xingyi) Dragon is a full form in itself with 6 or 7 different moves. Does anyone on the board practice one of these longer versions of dragon? Any comments on the applications of the various moves?

[Pandrews1982]

In my school I teach two linking sequences a shorter one and an extended version which has some rotating movements (i.e. you turn your back or turn 360 through the movement). I don't really like to break linking sequences into individual techniques rather flow continuously through the movement - its more about the quality of movement, the strategy and use of energy/body mechanics rather than specific 1 step applications.

If I had to break down the link the shorter version has around about 17 distinct movements (depending on where you break into single movements) of which about half are unique (the other half are repeats or mirrored on the other side of the body) the longer version adds another 10-12 movements and about 5 additional unique movements.

For all our linking sequences we have a number of variations linked together and we will usually run straight from one animal into the next until all 12 are complete. As far as I am aware these were passed down to us through my teacher's first teacher who was a Chinese malay and whose grandfather was taught directly by Guo Yun Shen.

Once someone can perform our linking sequence with good understanding and ability I encourage them to mix the movements up in any way they see fit and to experiment with creating new movements with the dragon xing (character/nature/spirit) meaning from that point on there are endless combinations and possibilities. Dragon is however, arguably the most difficult of the animals to master.

Dragon is very varied in use of combative force (jin), there is a lot of splitting (pi) force with different variations including horizontal applications in the version I practice, but equally there is beng jin (expand/compress) and zuan jin (spiral) so all three of the main offensive classes of force set out in the xing yi classics. And there is with the addition of strategic/tactical application the use of crossing (heng) jin which as a classification of "jin" represents the recycling or use of the opponent's own force against them (i.e. you take their force in one vector and send it back across them in another).

Strategy wise dragon is subtle, it looks to draw the opponent into a trap by using feints and misdirection. IMO it is much more directly applicable using weapons and jian seems to me to be quite effective with dragon but difficult to master. I quite like to use knife/needle (Ci) while doing dragon. In my school the dragon is a representation of the human nature (the dragon previously being used in China to symbolise a perfect human being, hence why the Emperor's symbol was a five clawed dragon). Our nature is as tool users and thinkers, we lay traps, tire out, harass/harry, create ambushes, and use weapons to subdue prey to over come our physical disadvantages (lack of size, strength, natural weapons such as claws).

I have to say Dragon is not really my favourite and in my school we have no students who tend to naturally excel in dragon.

Just to reiterate somethign i may have said before, to me the "xing" is the nature of the animal, to do the movement from a link/form is not to "have the xing" the xing is the spirit or character of the animal and it is something more than just mechanics, there is an expression of the animal through movement, strategy and a unique way in which it interacts with the environment and energy. If you are lacking in these other aspects all you are doing is robot xing yi - movements without essence. In this way one or two movements done with the correct expression is better than a long linking sequence of empty movements.

[jonathan.bluestein]

The fact that the vast majority of school seem to only have two movements for 'Dragon' seems to indicate that the longer forms were a newer creation specific to certain lineages.

[wiesiek]

Jonathan, would you post the clip ?

[edededed]

Jonathan - it could be either way, that more was added later, or that some was taken out. Or maybe both!

My version of Dragon is fairly long, but quite repetitive, and also said to be from Guo Yunshen. There are also many additional dragon movements that are not in the form.

[Lu da]

I don't really think it's important which came first the long movement or the short one. Xingyi isn't about specific movements as much as it is a philosophy of combat. There are certainly different ideas that are emphasized by practicing different 'elements' and those ideas can be refined by practicing different combinations of movements in the shape of 'animals' but ultimately it's just practicing a philosophy of combat.

Why a short movement? Sometimes it's important to condense all of the information contained in an idea in to the fewest movements as possible to give a person the opportunity to explore possibilities for themselves.

Why longer movements? Sometimes it's good to teach more literal expressions of a philosophy of movement in order to inspire a student to the possibilities.

I think both come from the same place.

I enjoyed what you wrote about dradon pandrew and I look forward to reading more of your ideas on xingyi.

[dspyrido]

I got shown longer sequences of animals and did not see the merit (for me). I am not saying that there is anything wrong with them but for me I had spent a fair amount of time doing the drills to get structure & understanding in place. Learning a sequence was therefore pretty easy but kind of pointless as I prefer to take the essence and make up my own applications. For this excercise I like to have a partner just throw attacks and using a dragon (or other) frame respond. Far more interesting and more creative process.

That said - if you don't feel comfortable with the animal then the chains are a library of the animal and may help bring greater understanding of them. After all this was the thinking that would have gone into the longer sequences. But with a strong recommendation - if you do longer sequences break each down and know why you are doing them (ie how they are applied). Then when doing the sequences solo you can more readily visualise them being applied.

[Pandrews1982]

On long vs short linking sequences

Personally I feel that xing yi animals were supposed to convey the nature of the animal rather than present a list of movements and techniques, a longer "form" or sequence may be mis-interpreted as a library of techniques especially by beginners, as such a smaller repertoire places less emphasis on the animal xing as technique based. However, from experience of seeing other xing yi schools, watching videos and hearing explanations of animals from other lines there are many out there that, because they lack the longer sequences, have not been able to grasp the overall strategy and character of the animal as they do not have enough understanding of the context or enough examples to really understand the animal.

There are awful (really awful) representations of the animals of xing yi on you tube, usually Snake and Tiger are the most widely shown and poorly executed often with a single movement repeated in a mechanical fashion.

I am of the opinion that each animal has certain characteristic movements which best embody its way of moving, strategy and energy and these are often the ones which you see have been pulled out and represented by many schools as the most useful or most representative of the animal and are practised in isolation. In fact many years ago my teacher showed me a some movements he called "The Eight Seeds of Tiger" which were eight isolated movements using the Tiger xing, each practised repeatedly. I think that it is good for a student to be first introduced to these overarching representative movements to get a feel of the xing to some extent, but then to get a more rounded context they should be shown either more examples or longer sequences to put the xing into a wider context and gain variation in their ability, once this stage has been reached the student may open themselves to free practice and later reduce what they feel is extraneous to their individual practice. Even to the extent of dropping the practice of one or more whole animal syllabus (each animal can be a whole martial art in itself and 12 is way too many to master if you also want to live a life and have to make a living, I encourage most of my students to master the 5 elements, train deeply in one animal they feel most at ease with and try to also reach a good level of competence with two other animals with different strategies).

As for which came first, long sequences or short? It doesn't matter. From my own experience I was taught that all sequences in Xing Yi are "linking sequences" (lian huan) rather than "forms", the difference being that they should be seen simply as chains of movements which can be adapted and changed. The older teachers would likely have encouraged students to expand upon a few movements and create longer sequences of their own, then scrap them and start again - this is exactly as I was taught. Sometimes the sequences if found to be particularly good or useful for whatever reason would have been kept which is why we have things like ba shi qi, an shen pao etc. but some of the understanding of how they were to be practised - with a spirit of creativity and adaptation - has now been lost at least in some lines.

I think the above is probably true for the other branches of xing yi / xin yi also as I have seen examples of xinyiluihequan where longer sequences of animal movements are performed or where numerous variations of movements of the same animal have been presented each being repeated a number of times then moving on to the next.

Advanced xing yi also encourages the further research and adaptation of animals through what we call Yan Xing (study/research of the animal spirit/character). This might be further observation of a specific xing yi animal, introspection upon the animal and creation of new movements and sequences or it could be creating an entirely new animal xing from your own study of an animal in the natural environment. As such some schools have a number of additional animals which may not feature in other school's curricula; my own school has additional short sequences for Wildcat and Crane in addition to the standard animals found in Hebei xing yi. My teacher studied individually on creating a xing based upon a specific bird of prey though it was his own and never taught this. I also practice a form of JMA Kempo which has emphasis on animals (and dieties etc) and practice my xing yi occasionally with some of the nature of the animals I know from kempo (Preying mantis, Wild Boar, Wolf etc.)

Having worked with bats professionally and as a volunteer conservationist I have always wanted to further research bats and create a bat xing, however I feel that right now I do not have the necessary time required to undertake such a task and still have so much to practice and learn from the 12 xing yi animals.

[GrahamB]

Having worked with bats professionally and as a volunteer conservationist I have always wanted to further research bats and create a bat xing, however I feel that right now I do not have the necessary time required to undertake such a task and still have so much to practice and learn from the 12 xing yi animals.

Already been done, Paul.

[Lu da]

In my family one of the things that is done is to have several variations of the animals based on different interpretations of it's spirit.

[Mr_Wood]

I enjoyed what you wrote about dradon pandrew and I look forward to reading more of your ideas on xingyi.

+1

Already been done, Paul.

lol GrahamB your a funny man