Sweating in combat training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:54 am

Some old posts of mine:
D_Glenn wrote:
neijia_boxer wrote:No that is not right. In TCM, there is an ancient text that talks about "qi"takes somewhere around 24-27 minutes to circulate through the entire body. So it takes this route around 50 to 60x a day. So that is why 30 minutes is enough for acupuncture session for "qi" to touch all the needles. So... sadly if you are a short form sucka, you have to do your form 2 or 3 x, if you are a long form player, you need to do it once at a pace of 24-27 minutes of play.

Steve James wrote:Well, wouldn't want to dispute the ancient texts, but ... qi has to be able to move at the speed of yi. And, just from a conceptual pov, qi is present everywhere all the time. Anyway, I'm not sure that the speed of qi depends on the speed of movement.

It's Weiqi (Defensive qi) which travels in the fascia layers beneath the skin. Which is different than the Yingqi (Nourishing/ Nutritive qi) which travels in the 12 meridians in a 24 cycle/ 2 hours per meridian. The 'Ling Shu Wei Qi Xing Pian' states that the Weiqi circulates 50 times throughout the body in a day, 25 cycles in the day, 25 cycles at night. As neijia_boxer mentioned it's concerning the minimum amount of continual time you would want to practice a neigong/ Daoyin exercise which works out to 24-27 minutes to come back to where you started. The actual movement that's happening in the cycle of Weiqi is nothing you have to worry or give any thought towards.

But what's being controlled with our 'Yi' (intent/focus) is more so the 'exiting' and 'entering' of our Weiqi, which is not a disruption of the Weiqi cycle, unless you're sick, or don't yet have a surplus of Weiqi built up in your body. So 'Yi' appears to make the Weiqi move so fast because it should be right there underneath the skin, just waiting to 'exit' from the fascia layer and into the skin where it opens the pores to sweat, which in turn brings the movement of Yingqi and blood out to the smaller vessels and micro-capillaries of the extremities. Using the 'Yi' to control the 'entering' of the Weiqi is also important where the opposite happens, pores close, stop sweating. There's a Martial saying my late teacher liked to say, it went something like 'Use 'Yi' to sweat and drive the movements of the exercise; but exercising and sweating without using/ practicing your 'Yi' is just the waste of a sweat; (and sweating without exercise is a sign of an internal imbalance).'

***
taijicannon wrote:In our form of taiji I've heard it said that each of the three thirds represents a full cycle of chi through the meridians in the order they are supposed to go in according to tcm theory i.e. doing all three thirds of the form results in the chi cycling through the whole system thrice.

The movement of Weiqi is not really a route, like a river, but like the lunar tides that move around through the earth's oceans, flooding up into the deltas at the front of the tides, and receding from the rivers and deltas behind it. It starts at the back of the legs (UB meridian), outside edge of the arms (SI meridian), and mid-lower back, called the Taiyang meridians; then gradually moves around the arms and legs to the Shaoyang meridians; then further around to the Yangming meridians then to the kidney meridian and heart meridian where it starts moving in a wave up the leg and front of the body and from the shoulder down the inside of the arm; then back down around the front of the body towards the back, circling back around the leg to the starting pointing, and around the arm to the starting point at the Taiyang meridians. It's like a tide that's moving and enveloping your body and four extremities at the same time.

So sweating is a positive thing, especially if you're using 'Yi', which in the basic sense means being mindful of what you're doing and not daydreaming or else you won't really learn anything from your training practice. Sweat is some part Yin Fluids but it's one of the ways our bodies get rid of toxins, so sweat is a good thing as it's getting rid of 'Turbid Qi'.

Somewhere along the way the hippies misunderstood the texts and thought they were losing 'Wei Qi' through their sweat, but it's 'exiting' to open the pores, and then coming back inside (entering) when the pores close.

Advanced usage of 'Yi' is being able to make the 'Five Palms' sweat, at will, and see beads of sweat forming on, say the palm of your outstretched hand, in a matter of seconds, (provided you're not in a breeze that's just evaporating it before any beads can form).

fwiw

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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Dmitri on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:14 pm

"not recommended to perspire in training" <==> "not recommended to train well (enough)"


A similar question was asked of Yang Zhenduo at his workshop in the mid-90s: "I was told you're not supposed to sweat when doing tai chi". His interpreter said, suppressing a chuckle, "Master Yang said, I don't know about you, but in China we sweat like pigs" :)


All that said, as a side note -- different people may sweat to very different levels from the same exercise.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby NoSword on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:48 pm

Rather than gauging physical fitness by how much someone sweats, wouldn't it make more sense to gauge it by what they can do without sweating?

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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:01 pm

I have always I scientifically gauged my own fitness level on the amount of time it took me to break a sweat, on the other hand, I often gauged the intensity of my training on the time it took and the volume of water produced.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby pennsooner on Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:00 pm

Famous old saying. "More sweat in the gym, less blood (yours) in the ring".
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Ralteria on Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:14 pm

NoSword wrote:Rather than gauging physical fitness by how much someone sweats, wouldn't it make more sense to gauge it by what they can do without sweating?

AK


I'm no athletic doctor but it would stand to reason that a higher level of fitness in "whatever" would mean that the specific level of "whatever" has becomes less taxing on the body. Hence the phrase: "didn't even break a sweat".

Just my 0.2
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Ian on Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:51 pm

Sweat is a poor KPI for measuring the success of a workout. That's what Crossfitters do.

If you're not trying to do the thing more and more efficiently, something's wrong!

Of course, sacrificing intensity and duration in the pursuit of relaxation is also wrong.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:06 am

kenneth fish wrote:If it sounds like mystical bullshit, its probably mystical bullshit.

Thank you, Ken, for stating the obvious! ;D
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Niall Keane on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:27 am

kenneth fish wrote:If it sounds like mystical bullshit, its probably mystical bullshit.
)

+1

It's incredible that IMA has sunk to a level so divorced from martial art reality that people are actually serious about if they should sweat during training!!!

The best thing about this forum is its never ending ability to shock anyone with common sense! It really is quite a trip!
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:35 pm

I think u are taking a CMC quote out of context
He is referring to simplified tai chi for relaxation
He also says that u only need to do 15 min. A day training
That was his sales pitch to get the mass audience to include a little tai chi in their life
He was not addressing the serious practicioner
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby SteveBonzak on Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:32 pm

"Sweat is the humor of the Heart" in Chinese Medicine and too much sweating can damage the functionality of the Heart. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677079/
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby yeniseri on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:24 pm

SteveBonzak wrote:"Sweat is the humor of the Heart" in Chinese Medicine and too much sweating can damage the functionality of the Heart. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677079/


Highly unlikey that the act of sweating damages the heart (evidence of blocked arteries) In the presence of disease and without the family practitioners' determination of health (as in cases like Jim Fix), the heart is unable to carry its normal 'load' (work, effort, etc) and at that point the lack of sweat is still an indicator of blockage and degree, as opposed to visible sweat (eyeball test).
Last edited by yeniseri on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby neijia_boxer on Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:08 pm

Sweat is considered a type of "blood" in TCM. it is good to sweat a little to allow Qi to flow, move fluids, blood, jing, ying qi, and wei qi. However to much sweating will start to exhaust the blood and create a blood and qi deficiency. So you still have to train hard, but train smart. Make daily practice yield some sweat. Move the mojo and juices.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby BonesCom on Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:34 pm

SteveBonzak wrote:"Sweat is the humor of the Heart" in Chinese Medicine and too much sweating can damage the functionality of the Heart. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677079/


Nowhere is sweat or perspiration mentioned in either the abstract or the full article.

Abstract:

A routine of regular exercise is highly effective for prevention and treatment of many common chronic diseases and improves cardiovascular (CV) health and longevity. However, long-term excessive endurance exercise may induce pathologic structural remodeling of the heart and large arteries. Emerging data suggest that chronic training for and competing in extreme endurance events such as marathons, ultramarathons, ironman distance triathlons, and very long distance bicycle races, can cause transient acute volume overload of the atria and right ventricle, with transient reductions in right ventricular ejection fraction and elevations of cardiac biomarkers, all of which return to normal within 1 week. Over months to years of repetitive injury, this process, in some individuals, may lead to patchy myocardial fibrosis, particularly in the atria, interventricular septum, and right ventricle, creating a substrate for atrial and ventricular arrhythmias. Additionally, long-term excessive sustained exercise may be associated with coronary artery calcification, diastolic dysfunction, and large-artery wall stiffening. However, this concept is still hypothetical and there is some inconsistency in the reported findings. Furthermore, lifelong vigorous exercisers generally have low mortality rates and excellent functional capacity. Notwithstanding, the hypothesis that long-term excessive endurance exercise may induce adverse CV remodeling warrants further investigation to identify at-risk individuals and formulate physical fitness regimens for conferring optimal CV health and longevity.


Pretty sure Ken nailed it...
Last edited by BonesCom on Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Overlord on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:01 pm

dspyrido wrote:I want to get a sense of view on the following.

Many years ago I came across an ima instructor who mentioned that it was not recommended to perspire in training & he classed what he did as combat oriented. This did not make sense & his justification was very chi theory oriented so I moved on.

Since then I have not come across any combat oriented instructors who agree with this. In fact the guys who rank as capable would all say things like "training - many sweat".

Now I am curious. Is this a universal agreed idea or are there views to the contrary?


There is some truth to it. If your survival require your stamina in water depleting condition. Yes.
However, it is not healthy if not sweating. It is like asking you not to piss.
If it is against nature, dont over do it.
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