Leading arm wrapping

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Leading arm wrapping

Postby johnwang on Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:43 pm



In the above clip, when you wrap your opponent's leading arm (the arm closer to you), you can reduce a lot of his striking and grappling ability. This will make the rest of the fight to be as simple as just "your other free arm to deal with your opponent's other free arm".

No matter what style that you may train, should you treat

- to wrap your opponent's leading arm, and
- not to let your opponent to wrap your leading arm,

as your highest priority in your training? Your thought?
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby Dmitri on Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:04 pm

Unless he has a really well-established headlock, there are some very good counters for that technique.

"highest priority in your training?" -- not even close, for me...
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:46 am

There's a few things I don't like about that clip - doing the hip throw from there is not as hard as he makes out. And he seems to put his hip too far through when he does it.Also, as Dmitri says the other guy has lots of counters - supplex would be the coolest, but a simple rear takedown would work, then once on the ground get out of the headlock.

Plus there's all the escapes from being on the bottom of judo side control where he finished at the end, although to be fair that position done well is a killer. Re Josh Barnett vs Dean Lister.

In terms of wrestling I think getting a 2 on 1 position with the hands is higher priority? Obviously not when punched are allowed.
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby Fubo on Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:40 am

My highest priority as far as forward type hip throws go, if we're talking about a street fight, as oppose to competition, would be to enter the throw from the outside. It's a lot safer in terms of the opponents ability to strike you, and leaves you in a much safer position if the throw fails.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:47 pm

Dmitri wrote:Unless he has a really well-established headlock, ...

Besides the head lock, you can still use over hook, under hook, or waist surrounding. Even that single leading arm control is enough to take your opponent down. All you need is just to pull/drop your body weight on that leading arm.

Here is an example that if you can control his leading arm, you can take him down from there.



GrahamB wrote:There's a few things I don't like about that clip - doing the hip throw from there is not as hard as he makes out. And he seems to put his hip too far through when he does it.Also, as Dmitri says the other guy has lots of counters - supplex would be the coolest, but a simple rear takedown would work, then once on the ground get out of the headlock.

Plus there's all the escapes from being on the bottom of judo side control where he finished at the end, although to be fair that position done well is a killer. Re Josh Barnett vs Dean Lister.

In terms of wrestling I think getting a 2 on 1 position with the hands is higher priority? Obviously not when punched are allowed.

The "head lock hip throw" may exist in Judo, but it doesn't not exist in SC. The reason is simple.

The

- head lock is to "crash" your opponent's structure downward (or side way).
- hip throw is to lift your opponent's body upward.

It contradicts to each other.

You don't always need to use 2 on 1 to wrap your opponent's leading arm. You can use just 1 arm:

- downward parry,
- upward block,

you can get that arm wrapping. This will work on both the "uniform stance" and the "mirror stance".
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:06 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby Dmitri on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:21 pm

johnwang wrote:Here is an example that if you can control his leading arm, you can take him down from there.

Sure, but it's not a very "high-percentage" technique... very easy for the other guy to take the back, if he doesn't just act like a throwing dummy as shown in the clip...
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby willywrong on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:37 pm

johnwang wrote:

In the above clip, when you wrap your opponent's leading arm (the arm closer to you), you can reduce a lot of his striking and grappling ability. This will make the rest of the fight to be as simple as just "your other free arm to deal with your opponent's other free arm".

No matter what style that you may train, should you treat

- to wrap your opponent's leading arm, and
- not to let your opponent to wrap your leading arm,

as your highest priority in your training? Your thought?


Well there's always a counter to any technique, having said that maybe having that your highest priority in your training it would have to depend on the art your training. My only concern with the technique in your video is the guy's right knee if he was to do that in the street on hard concrete but as you said it's not really about the drop (technique) it's about the arm wrap. Nice post John. :)
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby Ian on Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:19 pm

GrahamB wrote:Also, as Dmitri says the other guy has lots of counters - supplex would be the coolest, but a simple rear takedown would work, then once on the ground get out of the headlock.


The guy is supposed to end up bent over, ear to shoulder and with a twisted neck, so your suggested counters would be hard to pull off.

In terms of wrestling I think getting a 2 on 1 position with the hands is higher priority?


2 on 1s, baseball bat grips, whizzers, underhooks, overhook-lapel grips... all fall under 'wrapping the opponent's lead arm', so I can see the sense in it.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:21 am

GrahamB wrote: as Dmitri says the other guy has lots of counters - supplex would be the coolest, but a simple rear takedown would work,...

The waist wrapping is a very powerful counter. To prevent this from happening, you have to not allowing your opponent to

- wrap his arm around your waist,
- stand in well balanced horse stance. This will make him hard to bend backward.

Image

The moment that you feel your opponent's left arm tries to wrap around your waist, the moment that your right head lock arm should drop down into over hook, and lock on his left arm.



If you can use your right leg to "spring" your opponent's left leg backward from horse stance into bow arrow stance, it will be hard for him to pull/drag you down backward. If you use head lock on this, you can put a lot of pressure on your opponent's neck.

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:27 am

johnwang wrote:The "head lock hip throw" may exist in Judo, but it doesn't not exist in SC. The reason is simple.

The

- head lock is to "crash" your opponent's structure downward (or side way).
- hip throw is to lift your opponent's body upward.

It contradicts to each other.

You don't always need to use 2 on 1 to wrap your opponent's leading arm. You can use just 1 arm:

- downward parry,
- upward block,

you can get that arm wrapping. This will work on both the "uniform stance" and the "mirror stance".


Check out Ronda at 8.39 in this video demonstrating judo throws for MMA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKRfK98lB6s



Why not add this to SC? Wrapping the lead arm, grabbing the head and uchi mata looks pretty damn effective to me. She uses it in a lot of her fights to great effect.

In fact, she uses the head and arm wrap position to set up all sorts of Judo throws against resisting opponents:

Watch from 5.00 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pefuh0VJQ5Q



In fact from 8.30 onwards she uses a one arm version of your "big fist" to intercept strikes to get the head/arm wrap - they call it the "hanger". You can see her do the strategy perfectly against Tate. But also it shows the weakness of only using one arm - you eat a left.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:06 am

Ian wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Also, as Dmitri says the other guy has lots of counters - supplex would be the coolest, but a simple rear takedown would work, then once on the ground get out of the headlock.


The guy is supposed to end up bent over, ear to shoulder and with a twisted neck, so your suggested counters would be hard to pull off.



I think, as with any counter, the point would be to do it before you end up in 'the position of no return' - so as their arm wraps your head, you bend your knees, and go for a body lock, etc... obviously, you can't counter from the end of the position, where you're all locked up, controlled and bent over, unless you're a lot stronger/heavier than them.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:23 pm

GrahamB wrote:Why not add this to SC?

That's "leg block":

upper body clinch skill - head lock,
lower body leg skill - leg block.



The leg twist, leg lift, leg block are the 3 major "lower body leg skill" for the head lock "upper body clinch". When you apply leg block, you use horse back kick to knock your opponent's leg off the ground. It's different from the "hip throw". Different "upper body clinch" method can match well with different "lower body leg skill" method. The head lock (downward force) just don't match well with the hip throw (upward force).

GrahamB wrote: so as their arm wraps your head, you bend your knees, and go for a body lock, etc...

In clinch, the "bend knees" may give you more trouble than you think. It gives your opponent a chance to wrap his leg around your bending knee joint, and help you to bend your knee joint more. The side way knee joint pressure has no counters for it (at least I haven't found any counters for it yet).
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:54 pm

Fubo wrote:My highest priority as far as forward type hip throws go, if we're talking about a street fight, as oppose to competition, would be to enter the throw from the outside. It's a lot safer in terms of the opponents ability to strike you, and leaves you in a much safer position if the throw fails.

Agree! By cutting in side way (like in mirror stance), can save you that body spinning. Your opponent can't borrow your spinning force. Also in mirror stance, it's much easier to control your opponent's leading arm.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby dspyrido on Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:47 pm

JW - Just some rambling questions.

Should the priority be to get the arm or go straight into a finishing move? Is it more valuable to shoot in faster for the legs or to assume that you don't have that and work on controlling?

If you get the arm should the priority be to be to go for better control ie 2 on 1 or to get the back or go straight into a hip throw?

Combining these then - if instead of going for a throw you can lock and break as trained more often in chinna vs. wrestling/judo does that make leading arm wrapping more useful and less of a need to shoot or circle?

And a final thought - if we include striking then is leading arm control even more relevant?

I know the answer is probably - it depends - but you mentioned priority in training and perhaps the priority is dependent on the rules (if any) that the combat is being played out on.
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Re: Leading arm wrapping

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:25 pm

- Should the priority be to get the arm or go straight into a finishing move? Is it more valuable to shoot in faster for the legs or to assume that you don't have that and work on controlling?

You have to pass your opponent's arms before you can reach to his body/legs. I don't like the "leg shooting" because my opponent's arms are both free.

- If you get the arm should the priority be to be to go for better control ie 2 on 1 or to get the back or go straight into a hip throw?

To control the leading arm is the 1st step to achieve throw. Almost all the throws can be applied after that.

- if we include striking then is leading arm control even more relevant?

IMO, the leading arm control is even more important in striking environment. This is why I think a pure striker should train some grappling skill such as how to prevent (or get out of) an arm wrap.

- but you mentioned priority in training and perhaps the priority is dependent on the rules (if any) that the combat is being played out on.

In "combat", there will be no rules. Instead of you try to punch my head and I try to punch your head, I'm trying to address a different kind of combat strategy. I don't know how well my strategy will be accepted by the general public. It's just something that I try to promote. It won't be fun that we all fight the same way. ;D
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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