what's this baguazhang master doing

[bruce]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-SliCE30sM



some interesting stuff in this video "you want to make his movement awkward"

[amor]

Thanks for the replies guy, after going through all the threads you guys posted, none of them explain the internal mechanics of what's going on in the clip. Is the old guy just using a combination of peng jin with intention to bounce his students? Can someone please breakdown what he is doing to affect his students in this manner?

These clips will explain most of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm9REWZX9F8

Ian Sinclair posts a lot of info. on his blog but I wonder what Bodywork/Dan Harden think of him. Is he just another taichi guy utilizing his frame or does he got dantien?

[wingchun]

These clips will explain most of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm9REWZX9F8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=644ptQ0gZZ0
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTE1MDg5M ... -1.1-1-1-1

Ian Sinclair's movements does not have the same effect on his partner as the old guy does. when the old guy bounces his partners away, he force seems to colapse their hip and spine area, but when Ian does it, his force just uproots them. Ian movements also seems more overt where as the old guy's is more subtle to the point where it looks effortless.

watch the contact point, and what he does with with his other hand
at 2:42 he tells he explains a little to his student.
try drawing a circle from the contact point, going to the teacher, down to the ground up through
the students feet back to the contact point.

Do you believe the old guy's skill is real or staged?

Also Could you please explain the concept that he is explaining

[windwalker]

These clips will explain most of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm9REWZX9F8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=644ptQ0gZZ0
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTE1MDg5M ... -1.1-1-1-1

Ian Sinclair's movements does not have the same effect on his partner as the old guy does. when the old guy bounces his partners away, he force seems to colapse their hip and spine area, but when Ian does it, his force just uproots them. Ian movements also seems more overt where as the old guy's is more subtle to the point where it looks effortless.

watch the contact point, and what he does with with his other hand
at 2:42 he tells he explains a little to his student.
try drawing a circle from the contact point, going to the teacher, down to the ground up through
the students feet back to the contact point.

Do you believe the old guy's skill is real or staged?

Also Could you please explain the concept that he is explaining

I've felt the same things, with the same reactions, just as in many of the other clips showing similar things..
IMO, they'er not staged, what would be the point? the teacher would know, and the students would know

Hes telling them that "its here" at different points.

He can feel when his "give it a name" has moved through the other person.
The students are not actively resisting it, but they can feel it move through them and react to this.

When I do some of the same things, I call it awareness in china they would say "yi" intent. In other threads they talk about "center"
in this case the students center gets moved out the teachers "intent" guides this process, this is why they react to it depending on how its moved.


One can either move this and follow the body, or move the body directly which is what most try to do. The affect is different.
When the center is moved one will tend to move with out quite understanding why, the whole body will tend to move as a unit as apposed
to localized application of force. Or as in some clips people will hop feeling like their falling or run trying to catch their balance.

there are many clips showing and explain the same processes, its quite different once encountered

if you pick a time frame in the clip,,,one that you have a question about maybe we can look at that?

d

[wingchun]

I think this is more in line with the type of skill that I am referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4hOuO3XoO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HQCVH9TuAY

Ian sinclair and the chinese guy in the YouKu video seems to be doing the yang peng, where as the old guy and Mark cohen seems to understand how to do the yin peng. I am more interested in the bio-mechanics involved with the Yin Pang, it would be great to get an in depth explanation of the physics, theory and details involved with the yin pang?

[wingchun]

Hes telling them that "its here" at different points.

He can feel when his "give it a name" has moved through the other person.
The students are not actively resisting it, but they can feel it move through them and react to this.

I call it awareness in china they would say "yi" intent.

One can either move this and follow the body, or move the body directly which is what most try to do. The affect is different.d

How do you move this instead of moving the body?

also would you say this awareness of "Yi" intent is the same as ground reaction force?

Also will it still work if the opponent does an explosive shove/push directly in front on the practioner's centerline say on his chest. in both the old guy and Mark Cohen's clips, i notice their partners are always pushing them on their left and right channel when there are in a square neutral stance, but never directly on their centerline/central channel? please refer to the image below for the definition of central, left and right channels.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ocLJ5IIjzE/hqdefault.jpg

if you pick a time frame in the clip,,,one that you have a question about maybe we can look at that? d

Perhaps you can explain what's going on internally in the old man's body at 1:09, 1:39 and 1:55 in the clip to create that type of reaction in his partners? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

[windwalker]

How do you move this instead of moving the body?

also would you say this awareness of "Yi" intent is the same as ground reaction force?

IMO, no its not as some have suggested a ground reaction force. the mind directs where the center can be.
Its like surfing a wave. in this case one is the wave the other is the surfer with the exception that this wave has a mind to it
directing it.

Also will it still work if the opponent does an explosive shove/push directly in front on the practioner's centerline say on his chest. in both the old guy and Mark Cohen's clips, i notice their partners are always pushing them on their left and right channel when there are in a square neutral stance, but never directly on their centerline/central channel? please refer to the image below for the definition of central, left and right channels.

good questions, one has to be able to empty the point of contact, what one has to react to in time, is the intent of the push. This allows the body to take any shape needed to do what ever one wants to do with the physical force. If one is late, or before they end crashing into it, or being rocked back with it, instead of directing it as needed.

at 1:09 watch the person in black back, see how it bows, at first contact we can see that his body rises up.
The teacher completes this action and directs it back towards the student through the contact points.

this clip really explains a lot of what is happening much better then I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... ez4o#t=212

watch what the teacher does with the plum bob, and how he uses it to show where his center is and what happens to
the students touching him. In the clip he talks of the qi field, I use the word awareness field never the less it is an area that the mind can fill or empty.

whether any of this is good for "fighting" really depends on ones depth and level of skill. there are much easier ways to do things, just reprogramming the body/mind, takes awhile.
I dont claim any high level skill but can say that this is an area I've been working on for awhile.
My writing is really not good, I know this. My own teacher never really explained much just was not his way,, as a result while I have either felt or can do many of the things shown I really dont have the verbiage to describe it as well as I would like too.

[windwalker]

I think this is more in line with the type of skill that I am referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4hOuO3XoO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HQCVH9TuAY

Ian sinclair and the chinese guy in the YouKu video seems to be doing the yang peng, where as the old guy and Mark cohen seems to understand how to do the yin peng. I am more interested in the bio-mechanics involved with the Yin Pang, it would be great to get an in depth explanation of the physics, theory and details involved with the yin pang?

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

I think if you read what Robert Chuckrow, wrote you would find many of the explanations there in a language that most would be familiar with.

[wingchun]

the mind directs where the center can be. Its like surfing a wave. in this case one is the wave the other is the surfer with the exception that this wave has a mind to it
directing it.

Would you say this aspect of the mind or awareness is the same as the ability to project your mind? for example if you are driving a car, you don’t look at the steering wheel when you are driving a car, you actually look at the road in front of you. so that your mind goes on auto pilot?

Also will it still work if the opponent does an explosive shove/push directly in front on the practioner's centerline say on his chest. in both the old guy and Mark Cohen's clips, i notice their partners are always pushing them on their left and right channel when there are in a square neutral stance, but never directly on their centerline/central channel? please refer to the image below for the definition of central, left and right channels.

good questions, one has to be able to empty the point of contact, what one has to react to in time, is the intent of the push. This allows the body to take any shape needed to do what ever one wants to do with the physical force. If one is late, or before they end crashing into it, or being rocked back with it, instead of directing it as needed.

so it comes down to timing?

Can you explain how to tap into the awareness field of the mind?

[windwalker]

the mind directs where the center can be. Its like surfing a wave. in this case one is the wave the other is the surfer with the exception that this wave has a mind to it
directing it.

Would you say this aspect of the mind or awareness is the same as the ability to project your mind? for example if you are driving a car, you don’t look at the steering wheel when you are driving a car, you actually look at the road in front of you. so that your mind goes on auto pilot?

no I would say that the mind is very active but not stuck to anyone place or idea, as in driving a car, there is no separation between the act, action and actor

Also will it still work if the opponent does an explosive shove/push directly in front on the practioner's centerline say on his chest. in both the old guy and Mark Cohen's clips, i notice their partners are always pushing them on their left and right channel when there are in a square neutral stance, but never directly on their centerline/central channel? please refer to the image below for the definition of central, left and right channels.

good questions, one has to be able to empty the point of contact, what one has to react to in time, is the intent of the push. This allows the body to take any shape needed to do what ever one wants to do with the physical force. If one is late, or before they end crashing into it, or being rocked back with it, instead of directing it as needed.

so it comes down to timing?

Can you explain how to tap into the awareness field of the mind?

There is something called an ODA loop that might help in this.

In order to win, we should operate at a faster tempo or rhythm than our adversaries--or, better yet, get inside [the] adversary's Observation-Orientation-Decision-Action time cycle or loop. ... Such activity will make us appear ambiguous (unpredictable) thereby generate confusion and disorder among our adversaries--since our adversaries will be unable to generate mental images or pictures that agree with the menacing as well as faster transient rhythm or patterns they are competing against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

In eastern terms this might help

http://terebess.hu/zen/UnfetteredMind.pdf

The Affliction Of Abiding In Ignorance
The term ignorance means the absence of enlightenment. Which is to say, delusion. Abiding place means the place where the mind stops.
In the practice of Buddhism, there are said to be fifty-two stages, and within these fifty- two, the place where the mind stops at one thing is called the abiding place. Abiding signifies stopping, and stopping means the mind is being detained by some matter, which may be any matter at all.

To speak in terms of your own martial art, when you first notice the sword that is moving to strike you, if you think of meeting that sword just as it is, your mind will stop at the sword in just that position, your own movements will be undone, and you will be cut down by your opponent. This is what stopping means.

Although you see the sword that moves to strike you, if your mind is not detained by it and you meet the rhythm of the advancing sword; if you do not think of striking your opponent and no thoughts or judgments remain; if the instant you see the swinging sword your mind is not the least bit detained and you move straight in and wrench the sword away from him; the sword that was going to cut you down will become your own, and, contrarily, will be the sword that cuts down your opponent.

In Zen this is called "Grabbing the spear and, contrariwise, piercing the man who had come to pierce you." The spear is a weapon. The heart of this is that the sword you wrest from your adversary becomes the sword that cuts him down. This is what you, in your style, call "No-Sword."
Whether by the strike of the enemy or your own thrust, whether by the man who strikes or the sword that strikes, whether by position or rhythm, if your mind is diverted in any way, your actions will falter, and this can mean that you will be cut down.

both links IMO, are talking about the same things.

I wonder if "no sword" is reading this

[wingchun]

What's a good physical exercise tool used to experience or develop the awareness field of the mind?

[windwalker]

a good practice to help develop an awareness of what is meant by center among other things.


another clip that will help to explain about intent and timing as it relates to some of the things shown in clips often questioned

[wiesiek]

..."it seems that the only way to demonstrate this is if the "attacker" remains stiff and unchangeable. is this true?
for me today - yes

staying in the egg- plate analogy:
egg by movin` his yolk may disperse hard force of the plate sufrace
and
rock`n roll
avoidin` shell break

[wingchun]

the mind directs where the center can be. Its like surfing a wave. in this case one is the wave the other is the surfer with the exception that this wave has a mind to it directing it. I would say that the mind is very active but not stuck to anyone place or idea, as in driving a car, there is no separation between the act, action and actor

Would you say this aspect of the mind or awareness is the same as the mind's awareness is projected forward beyond the contact point, but not focused on any given point (zoned out)?

[bailewen]

Perhaps you can explain what's going on internally in the old man's body at 1:09, 1:39 and 1:55 in the clip to create that type of reaction in his partners? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

1:09 - Nothing special. He says, "Even if two of your try at once. One over here..another over here...whatever, just try some stuff out."

1:39 - The students left wrist is being locked. Students right hand has an overly firm grip locking it in place. The right hand can't change because it's being used to push on the mans elbow. But when he pushes, the man turns his elbow to deflect the push while simultaneously locking the students left wrist. That's why the student jumps. He gets stuck on the right and wrist locked o the left.

1:55 - He's is explaining a single palm change application. He says, "So how do we use a single palm change?" as the student approaches and grasps the teachers arm at the wrist and elbow. He continues, "For a single palm change, this hand goes over here (referring to his right hand, the one under his armpit), When this arm (bottom) moves, actually the push his here (referring to his free arm as he pushes the air with his fingertips extended)."He then invites the student to come and push him again but this time he says, "This time I push with this other arm (gets pushed off his base) Right? It's this arm over here that does the pushing. (again, emphasizing the free arm)"

That last bit, from 1:55 on, is just pure gold. I learned a lot from that that I was able to take back and apply in push hands and then later, I even used that trick in my leitai fight to throw a guy out of bounds and onto the ground. That old man's lesson taught me how to use "Brush Knee Twist Step" in an entirely different manner. Sometimes, the "pushing hand" is not striking the person at all. It is used to unify the body and lead the intent. In my case, it was the so called "blocking" hand, the "brush knee" part. That old man's video there was instrumental in me learning to do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyn3Z-kDes4