Dantian Power

[wiesiek]

aww...
I just realised , that I learned this breathing in my old karate days!
it was soo looong ago, dough
last 20 years I worked with different types of breathing exercises ,
and now
suddenly BANG flash back.!
yup
I`m the space cadet,
definetly
s - pace
sorry for interruption

[D_Glenn]

It wasn't an interruption at all. But a much needed inquiry that made me look at my translation again, and learn something about what people are doing.

Thanks

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[wiesiek]

Glad to help , then

Interesting to note , that both arts are using the same / similar/?/ breathing technique.
However internal version is explained to the bottom, as usual

[D_Glenn]

Glad to help , then

Hold that thought, but thanks again for questioning it all. Breathing is something we take for granted.

I have to re-edit again:

筑基的关键是要处理好气息。 人生全靠一口气，日常呼吸，呼出时，小腹内缩；吸进时，气下沉，小腹微有上升与突起，做到细长无声，这称调息。 通任督时要学会呼出时连同小腹突起，吸气时小腹内缩，即靠意念持内气沿着督任二脉循环呼吸，这叫调真息，也称橐籥功夫。 开始阶段可以用调息方法，使自己入静，但要真正通任督二脉必须学会逆呼吸，即当外气入腹时真息从腹底沿督脉上升头部百会穴；外气从鼻子呼出时真息从百会穴沿着任脉下降到腹底。

The pivotal point on which the 'Building the Foundation' Practices rely is on being able to breath well. One's whole life depends upon a single breath. Everyday you have to breathe. Every time you exhale the abdomen contracts/ shrinks in a little. Every time you inhale the (氣 Qì) sinks back down. In the exhale there should be a tiny movement upward of the abdomen. And the inhale the abdomen protrudes just a tiny bit. The breath should be fine, long and not make a sound. This is called 'Harmonizing the Breath' (調息 Tiáo Xī).

In order to learn how to time the movement of the breath with the movement of the Conception Meridian (任脈 Rèn Mài) and Governing Meridians (督脈 Dū Mài) one must learn how to exhale while the abdomen is protuding out a tiny bit; and on the inhale the abdomen contracts inward a tiny bit. This depends on using your thoughts (Yinian) to have the movement of energy follow the movement of Ren and Du and circulate through the two meridians with the breath. This is then called 'Harmonizing the True Breath' (調真息 Tiáo Zhēn Xī) a.k.a. 'The Skill of Playing the Flute from Both Ends' (橐籥功夫 Tuó Yuè Gōng​fu).

In the beginning of this stage you can use the method of 'Harmonizing the Breath'. Which can also be a means to help oneself first enter into a state of calmness.

But it's important to know that in order learn to time the movements of the Du and Ren meridians with the breath then one must learn 'Contrary Breathing' (Ni Fuxi). Where the outside air and True Breath (真息 Zhēn Xī) in the bottom of the abdomen rise upward in the 督脈 Dū Meridian, ascending to the top of the head, where the True Breath reaches 'Hundred Meetings Point' (百會穴 Bǎi Huì Xué). Immediately after the outside air is exhaled through the nostrils then the 'True Breath' (真息 Zhēn Xī) comes back in from 百會穴 Bǎi Huì Point and comes down the front of the body through the 任脈 Rèn Meridian, arriving at the bottom of the abdomen.

[The small movements of the abdomen are offset by the movement of the lumbar spine moving backward when doing a Fa Li/ Fajin, and then immediately returning to it's previous position on the inhale. So it's really not noticeable.]

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[Pero]

...
In the style of Baguazhang that I practice, the teachings of 張伯端 Zhang Boduan (987?-1082 CE) are the key. And in them: Building the Foundation Stage, is building the Exterior Dantian. There's no way to go beyond that, as you will just have a Dantian that leaks and disperses. Not to mention that we are stimulating energy conversion/metabolism through the use of muscle and the muscles of the core are our most efficient muscles, being that they're right by the liver, and they have the most potential to induce a surplus of Qi in our body.
...

Thanks D_Glenn. And sorry for my slow replying, went straight to work from the seminar with Bodywork in Germany the previous weekend and it was hectic the whole week. Then I also ended up with a cold or something, been mostly in bed for the past four days. Still haven't recovered but have to go to Italy tonight, coming back on Sunday.

Ok so.. If what you posted in the rest of your post is for building the external dantian, how do you build the internal dantian?
(since previously I didn't know there were two dantians, what you posted below would seem to me just how you build a dantian)

Pero, I highly recommend that you go see my teacher in London later this year, as you can get to see and feel first hand what the above Internal Cultivation can do and adds to the martial movements. http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/documents/LondonIntensive2015.pdf
...

Would love to but unfortunately I can't take many days off so that isn't possible right now. Next to how Daoist Internal Cultivation adds to martial movemenets I'm interested in the Internal Cultivation by itself too. Is it ever taught separately in Yin Bagua or is it completely intertwined with the martial side?

Also, so far I haven't seen you mention them but how do the "12 guiding energy meditations" and the "8 storing energy and developing sensitivity exercises" fit into this?

[D_Glenn]

Ok so.. If what you posted in the rest of your post is for building the external dantian, how do you build the internal dantian?
(since previously I didn't know there were two dantians, what you posted below would seem to me just how you build a dantian)

Next to how Daoist Internal Cultivation adds to martial movements I'm interested in the Internal Cultivation by itself too. Is it ever taught separately in Yin Bagua or is it completely intertwined with the martial side?

Also, so far I haven't seen you mention them but how do the "12 guiding energy meditations" and the "8 storing energy and developing sensitivity exercises" fit into this?

Building the Foundation is building the Exterior Dantian (muscles and fascia of the pelvis basin, abdomen, sides and interior muscles of the back, and once those are developed you kind of naturally start using the 'Contrary Breathing' (逆呼吸 Ni Fuxi) aka Reverse Breathing, which then starts circulating the Ren (front) and Du (Back) Meridians, which in turn starts bringing Outside Energy (Wai Qi) back into your Dantian, which is then added to your 'Acquired Energy' (后天氣 Hòu​tiān Qì), which starts building up your Interior Dantian. This is all done under guidance of your 意念 Yinian (Intent; Logical Thoughts).

Stage 2 is developing that surplus of 'Acquired Energy' (后天氣 Hòu​tiān Qì) into something more stable, but it requires a practice like Baguazhang's Circle Walking where you are now walking and moving around in a meditative state called 'Xing Zhuang', but in order to actually be in the correct state of mind, you have to know the practice by heart, so that you don't have to use your 意念 Yinian (Intent; Logical Thoughts) to be learning movements, or any other distractions, and can instead focus it on the further internal development.

I've only learned the martial side of Yin Bagua and this is all intertwined with it. Part of the goal is to focus on the martial art and distract yourself away from focusing on the internal side, as the internal connections have to form on their own accord. Picture a sudden rainfall that's landing on dry barren land/ soil, and at first the water just cascades down in one big sheet, but slowly the water starts gathering into many small rivulets, which then gradually start gathering into one another and you have many large streams running down the land, but as the rain keeps coming down these multiple small streams will eventually combine into one large one. That's the way that Qi is in our body and you just have to let it rain until the channels naturally make their own way through the sheer volume of fluid. So the key point is volume, having a vast amount or volume of Qi that you can move, but don't think about the specifics of where it's moving or try to dig trenches and channel it into what you can only imagine is the appropriate paths.

The "8 storing energy and developing sensitivity exercises" are basic daoyin movements and postures that aren't really for building a foundation or developing a surplus of 'Acquired Energy' (后天氣 Hòu​tiān Qì), but are more about converting that surplus into 'Wei Qi' (Guardian/ Protective Energy), which is the static-like energy that nourishes our skin and protects the body from outside pathogens. This for getting a better response when doing acupressure or acupuncture on a patient, as your 'Wei Qi', when focused into your finger or the needle in your hand, will illicit a better response from the patient's 'Weiqi' and in turn their 'Meridian Qi', etc.; And this extra 'Weiqi' that you can bring out to your hand and body, may also help to ensure that you don't pick up any pathogens that the patient may be exposing you to.

The "12 Sitting guiding energy meditations", are kind of like another version of the Standing and Circle Walking and a different way to Open the 3 gates, etc. but the main requirement is that you are able to sit in a 'Crossed-Knee Aligned' Sitting Posture, so that the tailbone can be tucked under. And this is okay if your thighs aren't muscular at all. But if you do our Martial Standing (Zhan Zhuang) or Circle Walking (Xing Zhuang) then your thighs will get big pretty quickly. So these are more for people who can't or don't want to practice the martial art but still want to get the cultivation aspects of the Zhan and Xing Zhuang.


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[wiesiek]

breath is most important part of the practise, so it can be the only practise ...
as I learned in healing art:
in both types of the breath qi is rising - when inhale,
- sinks together with exhalations .

in MA type of the breath discussed above - qi is rising when exhale

ps
do you recommended this type of the breath during the 8 brocades too?

[D_Glenn]

breath is most important part of the practise, so it can be the only practise ...
as I learned in healing art:
in both types of the breath qi is rising - when inhale,
- sinks together with exhalations .

in MA type of the breath discussed above - qi is rising when exhale

ps
do you recommended this type of the breath during the 8 brocades too?

In the beginning you have to do what is natural - Shun (Going with the flow or Moving With the natural order of things).

In Daoist cultivation you gradually learn to do the opposite of that - Ni (Going against the flow; Trudging up the stream; Moving against the natural order of things; Contrary; Reverse). But first you need to be strong, have a solid foundation. Wade out into the really shallow parts of the river, get accustomed to the natural flow of the river and only later start trying to walk upstream, ankle deep water, then knee high, then hip high water, etc. but you can't see the rocks under the water, you have to use your 'Yinian' to feel out the safe path, and you don't have to do this breathing at all times, maybe 3 breaths you use Ni, then 1 or several breaths you use 'Shun Fuxi' (Normal Breathing), which is like having to turn around in the river as it's too difficult to get past the rocks where you're at, and instead walk with the flow of the current and diagonally, and then start walking back up the river in a different part, so that you can get past the difficult part. Everyday is starting overyou need to test the flow of water and start again in the shallow parts, only hopefully you are stronger and more rooted in and aware of your 'Zhongxin' (Center of Gravity).

***
I don't know the 8 Brocades, that's not practiced in the style of BGZ that I do.

***

"qi is rising when exhale" is the type of breathing that I and many others use in CIMA use, (and for all I know in some other Martial Arts as well).

Here's a good post I found in an older thread (Underlined emphasis is my addition):

There are several issues here:

Outdated terminology:
"Chest breathing" and "stomach breathing" are old terminologies that are liable to give people wrong ideas about our anatomy and their functions. They are derived from the gross feelings people experience, like when you're aerobically out of shape, you feel this stabbing pain in the middle of your body (diaphragm) after running just a few hundred yards, and you feel like you're only breathing from your chest (because you're not really using the diaphragm that much, the breathing has become shallow).

No matter what kind of breathing you're talking about, air is breathed into the lung, it cannot go to the stomach. That's actually one of the main functions of your diaphragm - as partition between heart and lung from the food processing and waste disposal systems below.

Shallow vs deep breathing in natural breathing:
Modern living is stressful, and largely disengaged from nature. Most of us are not in touch of our body the way our ancestors did, or use it in the most natural or optimal manner. In addition, breathing happened to be one of the two things that can be done with consciously thought (and therefore heavily influenced by its state). Ideally the breath should be long, smooth, slow, even. Most of us, especially stressed, breath in shallow, erratic manner, the inhale and exhale are of different length, and we frequently hold our breath.

Reverse breathing:
So if normal breathing is where the diaphragm expands during inhaling and contracts during exhale, reverse breathing is just diaphragm contract during inhaling and expands during exhale.

Here is where one of the common confusion lies. Some people, when they breath shallowly, looks like they are doing reverse breathing, because their abdominal region is contracted when they breath in, and seem to expand when they exhale. This has nothing to do with martial art. This is just because they are tense, stressed out. The hold tension in their abdominal region the way other people hold tension in their shoulder and neck areas. And when they breath out, they naturally relax it a bit.

In martial art we consciously do reverse breathing for performance reasons. This has to do with fa jin. When you release external jin (big, explosive type for example), you do it with exhale right? It's not natural to take a deep breath in when pushing a heavy weight away from the body. The general feeling you want to get is that of an explosion outward.

This has to do with the function of the abdominal wall itself. In most performance activities the abdominal wall serves as a short-range stiff spring. By expanding the abdominal cavity during exertion, we temporarily enhance torso stiffness to eliminate energy leaks for efficient transfer of hip generated power.

To practice reverse breathing, you don't need be consciously controlling your breathing every moment. Just do it three times before the start of a form. Over time you will do it all the time during the form, and any time when you do martial art related tasks.


By the way, sometimes it's very dangerous to mix training ideas for different activities together. A lot of people have this false premise that there is 'one true way", the one universal, most natural way the body should move no matter what the goal is. That's like saying there is one best car. Which car is best depends on what you're trying to accomplish - win drag races, carry a team of kids to soccer practice, haul tons of food across country... I can't speak about Pilates, but I'm especially careful about separating my yoga practice with martial art. Especially when it comes to breathing: in yoga movement follows breathe, in martial art breathe follows movement. Advance yoga practice involve things like hollowing out the stomach (drawing in the abdominal wall), which, no athlete should practice and use for performance reasons.

SO, the point I'm trying to make is that this way of breathing is about 'Fa Jin' in CIMA and, in the Daoist cultivation, it's also about Fajin or being able to have the Water to Surge Upward (洪水波涌 Hongshui Bo Yong - Which is like a shoreline that has tiny caves and the crashing waves at high tide are funneled into the channels and create a geyser-like spray, or fountain surging upward.) 洪水波涌 Hongshui Bo Yong is about moving energy up the 'Interior Small Orbit', which is also called the 'Water Channel', and the process is also called 'Passing through the 2nd set of gates'.

People, too often, have this mistaken idea of what Daoists of the past were doing. They weren't doing relaxed movements like Yoga. They were using powerful movements that were built upon a very strong foundation and framework, which in turn this affects the breath, but we're talking about 'True Breath' (Zhen Xi), which is a good way to describe the feeling, which is like the Wind (Feng)/ Obvious power. There wasn't any stretch of time or evolution of these practices being appreciated by other non-Daoist martial artists. It's immediately recognizable that the result of these refined practices were and are beneficial to martial arts. The mixture, or blending of the two disciplines, probably happened thousands of times, over the thousands of years in Chinese history, but now we only have records of just a couple dozen or so, some are so similar that they likely came from the same source, but some are different and come from different Daoist schools of thought.


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[wiesiek]

thank you,
In my q., I put 8 brocades as the example of the widely known " basic qi cultivation set".

Just funny to realize, that I trained hard karate style with >internal< type of the breathing method.

[D_Glenn]

There's a saying in Baguazhang via Dong Haichuan that The Study of BGZ begins at 削 Xiao and ends with 頓 Dun.

削 Xiao (Carving, Paring, Whittling) is the first Ability/ Skill (能 Neng) the 乾卦 Qian Trigram, which is represented by 3 solid lines ☰ which represents the the 外三合作 Wai San Hezuo (Outside/ Exterior Three Harmonies) and the 内三合作 Nei San Hezuo (Inside/ Interior Three Harmonies) which need to be trained to perfection. The 削能 Xiao Neng is Baguazhang's Silk-Reeling Exercises to develop the 纏絲勁 Chan Si Jin (Winding/ Reeling Silk Power).

Chopping/ Cutting down a tree then lopping off the branches and stripping off the bark is all relatively easy when compared to the work of manually shaving down the timber into a perfectly round column or mast of a ship. This is 削 Xiao (slicing; shaving; paring) off the angles and making the surface perfectly circular or round (溜圓 Liuyuan). Or Whittling down a square block into a sphere. Removing the edges that form flat planes and making it into a curve shape.

Turning angular movements into curve ones requires the whole body to connected by what is at first only a conceptual idea but really it's all the myofascia and tendons that interconnect the body.
So first focus on 'One part moves every part moves' and using 起钻落翻 Qi Zuan Luo Fan (Rising, Drilling, Lowering, Overturning) which is how the arms move in opposite yet connected manner, where say one palm is facing up (钻 Zuan) and the other palm is facing down (翻 Fan) and then making smooth rotations of the palms as they're slowly transitioning from Drilling-up or Overturning to face down and vice versa. The key is that these opposite rotations of the forearms is happening at the same time because there's a proverbial thread or web/cocoon of silk threads (myofascia and tendons) that is connecting one arm to the other and by moving them in opposite directions you will be getting the most movement of the myofascia. There's layers though and this movement is more about bringing more lubrication to the layers and in between them (via the Bonghan Channels/ Luo Mai) and that these layers start sliding and gliding smoothly over one another. And then the increase of power comes from there not being any sticking or stopping as the movements of the bone, muscle, ligaments, tendons and fascia are perfectly circular or round (溜圓 Liuyuan), and there's no edges for some thing to get caught on. And the Emission of Power (Fajin) can transfer from bottom of the Dantian all the way out to the fingertips or you can hold the 'Fa' back and it's just using this 纏絲勁 Chan Si Jin (Winding/ Reeling Silk Power), which we call 渾圓 Hunyuan (Perfectly Round) in Baguazhang which signifies that there is a secondary power, where if you don't know how to Rotate your Dantian around it's horizontal axis, then you would only have a 溜圓 Liuyuan Power.

So 纏絲勁 Chan Si Jin (Winding/ Reeling Silk Power) is taking a square shape and shaving it down until it's Perfectly Circular (溜圓 Liuyuan).

Where being able to Fajin, (the fast movement of the Spine (脊 Ji) that is 'Jolting' (震 Zhen) the Chong Meridian at the 尾骨闾 'Weigu Lu' (Tailbone Gate)/ 力由脊发 'Li you Ji fa (Power comes from the spinal column emitting/Issuing)) is chiseling out a perfectly square hole in the dead center of your perfect circle. And through this square hole is where the axle goes through. Fajin is the Square inside the Circle.

So a lot of people work for years to try and develop their body into this Perfectly Round shape, and then later they try to find the axis of the circle but it's really difficult and most give up on finding it.

It's better to first find the two axles and then like using a wood lathe you can rotate your dantian and body around the two axles/ central axis and make your body's movements Perfectly Circular (溜圓 Liuyuan)/ 纏絲勁 Chan Si Jin (Winding/ Reeling Silk Power) around that. This is also like how a silkworm first needs to make the button of silk that attaches or fixes the eventual cocoon to a twig/ a solid anchor point.

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[yfaway]

D_Glenn, thanks very much for the information. Do you have any picture that illustrates the vertical and horizontal axis of the Dantien? Would it be right to say that in the brush knee move, as the back hand pushing forward, the Dantien is rotating around the vertical axis, and in the opening move of Taichi, the Dantien is rotating around the horizontal axis?

Thanks,

[D_Glenn]

D_Glenn, thanks very much for the information. Do you have any picture that illustrates the vertical and horizontal axis of the Dantien? Would it be right to say that in the brush knee move, as the back hand pushing forward, the Dantien is rotating around the vertical axis, and in the opening move of Taichi, the Dantien is rotating around the horizontal axis?

Thanks,

In most movements there is both rotations but like in brush knee the dantian is rotating on it's vertical axle but as the arm is rising up, you could quickly rotate the dantian on it's horizontal axis to 'Emit' (Fa), but only if it's going to be an effective usage of your Emission, if you're just using the brush knee movement to transition into something else then it would just be the one rotation.

In the opening movement Luohan pounds morter, there is no real vertical axle rotation so it's just the rotating around the horizontal axis/ axle.

The important part is that the combination of the two, is what gives you power in all directions when you combine them and harmonize their rotational movements.

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[yfaway]

I agree. In my limited experience, the vertical rotation is much easier to comprehend because in the very beginning of the learning process, it is triggered by the waist/hip turn (quite external). The horizontal rotation is triggered by the downward and upward movements, and is much harder to get. The majority of the time people pull themselves up using the upper body or purely using the thigh muscle. I am still not quite sure if I get it yet, but I start feeling the horizontal rotation of the Dantien in the upward movement. It feels a lot more effortless, and not so much about using the thigh muscle to get up.

I agree that in the brush knee move, both are happening. The vertical rotation is more obvious however. The horizontal rotation is triggered by the weight shifting from full back foot to full front foot (i.e. body rising).

Could you share your thought on how one would measure the progress of understanding Dantien rotation if one doesn't do Fajin? Would you say that a person is on the right path if say when doing the Taichi set, he or she can let the movement of the body driving the hands (versus in the beginning, the intention of the hands driving the body movements)?

Thanks,

[D_Glenn]

I agree. In my limited experience, the vertical rotation is much easier to comprehend because in the very beginning of the learning process, it is triggered by the waist/hip turn (quite external). The horizontal rotation is triggered by the downward and upward movements, and is much harder to get. The majority of the time people pull themselves up using the upper body or purely using the thigh muscle. I am still not quite sure if I get it yet, but I start feeling the horizontal rotation of the Dantien in the upward movement. It feels a lot more effortless, and not so much about using the thigh muscle to get up.

I agree that in the brush knee move, both are happening. The vertical rotation is more obvious however. The horizontal rotation is triggered by the weight shifting from full back foot to full front foot (i.e. body rising).

Could you share your thought on how one would measure the progress of understanding Dantien rotation if one doesn't do Fajin? Would you say that a person is on the right path if say when doing the Taichi set, he or she can let the movement of the body driving the hands (versus in the beginning, the intention of the hands driving the body movements)?

Thanks,

Quickly Rotating the Dantian on it's Horizontal axle is done by moving the muscles of the lower abdomen, groin, and back, which tucks the tailbone under and the lumbar spine rounds to the back. This is how 'Fajin' is done. Power is emitted by the spine. The movement of the hips and legs, or the carriage (pelvis) of the Dantian moving up or down has nothing to do with the rotation.
If you don't learn how to do this movement at speed/ quickly then there's no way to know if when doing the movement slowly is ever actually correct. So there is no way that you could really learn this kind of whole body movement without at least doing some 'Fajin' movement of lumbar and tailbone. If you only found the movement around the vertical axle, and you could drive the movements of your hands from there, then you would only be developing and be able to use about half/50% of the Chansi Jin (silk reeling power) that your body is capable of.

Also, if you never really learn the Rotating the Dantian around it's Horizontal Axle aka 'Zhedie', and you only have the Rotation around the Vertical Axle, then you don't really have the two axles crossing one another in the center of your Dantian, which makes it into your 中軸 Zhongzhou (Central Axis/ Core).


I'm sharing these new translations on these topics because I believe that we should be living up to our own Full IMA Potential. After all, it is our own body, that is the IMA.

And we should learn to use our body in the way that it's actually described in the Taijiquan and other IMA Classics.

There's just so many mistranslations that have already been flooding into the literature and minds of the Western world, where now - not only are these movements difficult to do and require a lot of practice, but on top of that already huge task there is also a ton of deprogramming of the years of mistranslations that have brainwashed the Western world of IMA.

So it's not an easy task to say the least.


Cheers, hope that helps.

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[yfaway]

D_Glenn,

I was referring to an exercise similar to this video of I-mon: . The one I do is slightly different. The hands traverse downward and upward along with the the drop and rise of the body. And we only go down to where the thighs are parallel with the ground. At that point, when the whole body is relax, there is another tiny drop at the tail bone which then triggers the upward movement.

I would like to ask you another question. Are there any known external manifestations of a developing Dantien? During your practice, have you seen/heard/felt the squishing ball moving around in the stomach area? It moves in different directions depending on the body motion/central axis. And when it moves, it makes very loud noise that can be heard at the other end of the room.

Thanks,