Tai Chi in the cage

[MaartenSFS]

For me the question is not whether it is Taiji or not but if it is even CMA at all...

[northern_mantis]

if you want to see how a style is visually in combat then shadow boxing with an imaginary opponent is arguably the closest thing. And the video I posted on the fourth page of this thread shows plenty of that throughout. It looks like the fighting tai chi of my imagination, embodies tai chi principles and there's nothing in there that shouldn't work against a boxer.

Looking forward to watching the fight to see if the gap between the training and fighting has been bridged.

[Orpheus]

I wonder if in the days of yore, the founders of the arts and their initial students were concerned with how their arts looked in a fight. Sure, he defeated his enemy, but did he embody the art? Did Sun Lutang address this?

If a person trains tai chi and it improves their fighting skill, it would seem to indicate that there is some tai chi in their technique, somewhere. Maybe it is in the relaxation.
If a person trains bagua and it improves their fighting skill, it would seem to indicate that there is some bagua in their technique, somewhere. Maybe it is in the foot work.

[windwalker]

I wonder if in the days of yore, the founders of the arts and their initial students were concerned with how their arts looked in a fight. Sure, he defeated his enemy, but did he embody the art? Did Sun Lutang address this?

If a person trains tai chi and it improves their fighting skill, it would seem to indicate that there is some tai chi in their technique, somewhere. Maybe it is in the relaxation.
If a person trains bagua and it improves their fighting skill, it would seem to indicate that there is some bagua in their technique, somewhere. Maybe it is in the foot work.

reading your bio, and noting your present listed location this seems like a very surprising question.
That one can add bits and pieces of something to arrive at a high level functional usage of it?

Having also trained in Beijing of the teachers that I know none would agree with this.
asked out of curiosity.


The "founders" where very concerned about their arts
The " taiji families" still are

One day he was challenged by a strong martial artist. When the challenger grasped his wrist and would not let him escape, Yang, Ban-hou used his jin to bounce the challenger away and defeat him. He was so proud that he went home and told his father. Instead of praise, his father laughed at him because his sleeve was torn.

http://ymaa.com/articles/history-of-yan ... -taijiquan

they knew the name style and rep of the person they faced just as many here track MMA fighters ect.

After Yang, Lu-chan finished his study, he returned to his hometown and taught taijiquan for a while. People called his style Yang Style (Yang Quan, 楊拳), Soft Style (Mian Quan, 綿拳), or Neutralizing Style, (Hua Quan,化拳) because his motions were soft and able to neutralize the opponent's power. He later went to Beijing and taught a number of Qing officers. He used to carry a spear and a small bag and travel around the country, challenging well-known martial artists. Although he had many fights, he never hurt anybody. Because his art was so high, nobody could defeat him.

note it dosent talk about what he did, he was known by how he did something. Something very unique in its time.

[grzegorz]

Interesting, I remember on Ultimate Fighter (aka. TUF) Nick saying, "F*** kungfu!" After becoming a sanda champ and then experiencing MMA.

Not a criticism, but interesting that he's now back to endorsing kungfu or taiji anyhow. I wonder if he would have gone in that direction if he won the show and got a UFC contract.

I agree that you can't really judge someone's taiji on video without actually "feeling them."

Maybe he is using taiji principles along with his other training hard to say with video alone, if he is then more power to him.

[Orpheus]

reading your bio, and noting your present listed location this seems like a very surprising question.
That one can add bits and pieces of something to arrive at a high level functional usage of it?

I updated my profile. The one you read was from when I moved to Beijing in 2009. I've moved back to DC and I am informally doing some teaching. I don't suppose it changes anything.

I am familiar with the stories of the famed martial artists, Yang Lu Chan, Cheng Ting Hua, etc. Perhaps they could embody the arts so perfectly in a fight that when viewed, you immediately saw the art in its purest form. Nobody who saw them do it is alive and there is no video. My issue is relying on these stories to evaluate what this guy is doing in the ring as not looking tai chi. Nobody is providing a positive counterpoint video of any of the internals being used in a competitive format and it looking "internal". Where's the video of the Yang Lu Chan-level guy defeating all of his opponents without injury?

My opinion is colored by practicing shuai jiao. Anyone can get on the mat and wrestle. They could have absolutely no formal training, but if they win...well...they're the best wrestler. I guess the question is do you want to win or fight with a particular form in mind? They might be compatible, but if they aren't, well, I know which one I would pick.

because his motions were soft and able to neutralize the opponent's power.

That quote doesn't really describe what they saw. I've seen this in wrestlers. Never do I think to myself "yo, that's straight up tai chi". I doubt that another tai chi player would either. I've wrestled guys who had a softness that would be the envy of a taichi practitioner (when they would "turn it on"). Guys with great tingli. There are a number wrestling moves that can't really be pulled off without these abilities, especially when facing a skilled opponent. That's really what I can care about, is facing skilled opponents.

Almost all of my MA teachers have said the same thing, which is that things tend to look ugly when the skill levels are about the same. I never asked my first teacher about this.

Personally, I think things like this are good for CMA. This guy is providing exposure to tai chi at the martial level. He's putting himself out there and competing. Who cares if it looks like tai chi. If he is successful, it does a lot to promote the art and get people in the doors. If not, tai chi maintains its "exercise for the elderly" status in the general populace. The tai chi community may get its hackles raised about purity, but I doubt any of them are running out to challenge him.

[Edited for Clarification]

[windwalker]

Anyway, who cares.

apparently the ones promoting it as "taiji" seem to care

This guy is providing exposure to tai chi at the martial level. He's putting himself out there and competing. Who cares if it looks like tai chi. If he wins, it does a lot to promote the art and get people in the doors.

How can one say hes "providing exposure to "taiji" at the martial level, and then go on to note "who cares if it looks like taiji" When people go to see a boxing match, they expect to "see" boxing no?

got it

In China awhile back, some chen stylist had a match with some who where supposed to be thai boxers. They from what I read trained in a lot of sanda before the match.
What they did reflected more of sanda flavor, no real distinctive use of the "chen taiji" style which was advertised.
They won their matches but many questioned what it was that they won it with...

If the main part is to "win" why advertise the method, why not just promote the "person" who happens to practice a certain method.

Anyway its not just taiji, CMA in gen suffers from this. I dont quite understand it myself although I can say in the 70s it was kind of joke, CMA practiced one way, but was used completely different. At the time the rule sets where blamed.

[windwalker]

Almost all of my MA teachers have said the same thing, which is that things tend to look ugly when the skill levels are about the same.

and fighting looks like fighting, except when its almost any other art besides CMA.

CMA with its long history and many varied styles all of which where developed or used to
minimizes physical attributes or techs of other practitioners or styles.

BJJ a style with a quite distinctive strategy and use, followed this model
really well back in the day.

[Steve James]

and fighting looks like fighting, except when its almost any other art besides CMA.

Imo, the thing is that, for the most common and popular combat sports, it's the "training" that looks like the "fighting." The basic training of tcc (and bagua) reminds many of dancing, and doesn't seem to be in evidence while fighting (i.e., in a competitive setting against an uncooperative opponent. Let's forget about defining a fight as a life or death affair).

What are the possible explanations? We've gotten past the "it's too deadly" argument. YLC wasn't famous for killing opponents, anyway. So, there's the argument that the rules or necessary equipment puts the tcc practitioner at a disadvantage and makes it impossible for them to employ their art the way it is practiced. For a while, the response was to create tcc and bagua tournaments, but this just led to people looking like they were trying to fight using push hands or spar while walking in circles. Ok, but when the winners of these tournaments went to open or mma competitions, they "looked like" mma competitors.

Another explanation might be that tcc principles can be employed without the practitioner looking as if he's practicing a form. Dmitri has already brought up the point that, since tcc is considered a primarily responsive art, the exact shape used to respond will depend on the shape presented by the opponent. Even then, that shape will depend on the specific opponent's size, strength, reach, intention, etc. So, there's no one predetermined shape or form to follow, if one is actually following the principles.

[Orpheus]

Just a note. I edited out the "who cares" because I thought it was flip.

Just different perspectives. As far as the martial side of things, I see my tai chi and bagua as training systems that have tools to develop the ability to fight such as footwork, relaxation, listening, rooting. The rooting aspect of my training from taiji made me a much better wrestler, but I doubt you would see it in my wrestling. The drills in there are useful and have made me a better wrestler. I just think the people looking for taiji or bagua in a competition format are looking for the wrong things.

This is a discussion better suited to be had over beers.

[liokault]

Ok, added everyone that asked for access and mailed a link.

The mail has the wrong title, so if you see a weird mail sent 5 mins ago, that's it and the link is indeed a youtube site.


Watch and see what you think.

[dspyrido]

I find it strange that if someone wins a tournament using a ground submission and they dont have a known brand backing them, brazillian bjj instructors will seek them out to know what school they come from and what grade they are so as to see if they can adopt them (and the win). Regardless of if they do or dont do bjj.

But if a guy stands up and claims inspiration from tc, does videos of him doing tc and claims it as an important part of his background we get responses claiming it's not tc because it does not look like tc (whatever that means). Even worse is hearing an argument based on wu xia stories that have no possibly being backed by any video evidence at all.

But in all of this one thing I know is that no style fights for anyone and in the end it's the individual's involved. Nick's done well to get to this level.

[windwalker]

it does not look like tc (whatever that means)

It means a left hook practiced and used tends to look like a left hook no interpretations needed.
A ground submission can be looked at and talked about what type how it was achieved.

Funny thing about those wu xia stories they tend to be stories until one runs into people who have some of the skill sets mentioned then its petty clear.
Kinda like "IP" that many talk about it, but as of yet no video clips,,, also in the same sense that its freely acknowledged and often stated that most are not really doing it only a few. People can travel,practice for many yrs and still not run into it...this has been repeatedly stated concerning "IP"

kudos to any that compete and win. Regardless, what I look for is the training no matter what kind and whether it is actually used.

CMA has a problem with this in gen in competitive venues. One IMO that they really have not addressed for those who say they represent such and such style.

This is a discussion better suited to be had over beers.

yep

[grzegorz]

I find it strange that if someone wins a tournament using a ground submission and they dont have a known brand backing them, brazillian bjj instructors will seek them out to know what school they come from and what grade they are so as to see if they can adopt them (and the win). Regardless of if they do or dont do bjj.

But if a guy stands up and claims inspiration from tc, does videos of him doing tc and claims it as an important part of his background we get responses claiming it's not tc because it does not look like tc (whatever that means). Even worse is hearing an argument based on wu xia stories that have no possibly being backed by any video evidence at all.

But in all of this one thing I know is that no style fights for anyone and in the end it's the individual's involved. Nick's done well to get to this level.

I don't see scepticism as a bad thing. The fact is there a ton of people fighting in these formats who have no IMA training and still do very well.

I love combat sports but I don't think that if someone competes it automatically means they have great gong fu.

In my experience those who do well in competition either; one have greater attributes and or experience or two they want it (winning) more than the average Joe.

[dspyrido]

I don't see scepticism as a bad thing. The fact is there a ton of people fighting in these formats who have no IMA training and still do very well.

Skeptism is a great thing!

But it's not about generally people in this format but about nick saying "I do tc" that seems to garner skepticism. You dont hear people disputing machida on his karate background or when rousy throws a punch having people say - see she doesnt really believe in judo.

Perhpas nick just does a slow form and hits the matt for 8 hours but something has motivated him at some point to say "I do tc". Now it's a fine line between skepticism and calling a guy a liar.