water and fire

[mixjourneyman]

Just a quick note:

Water and fire means Kan and Li. Kan has two yin lines on the outsides and a yang line inside, so it means even though water is soft, it is internally hard.
Li has two solid lines on the outsides and a broken line inside, which means even though fire is strong, it can be controlled. The relationship between Kan and Li and external and internal martial arts is very deep, so what he said there has more than one level of context.

In regard to the whole body not using strength, he specifically said 全不用力 completely don't use "Li" Li refers in this case to the strength of individual groups of muscles such as what you would use when you are working. It doesn't mean the body doesn't have strength, it means the strength is not obtained by separating the body into individual movements like you would when you swing a hammer or write with a pencil or snap your hips to throw a punch. Instead, you should use the strength of the whole body which is controlled by the mind, he says 專一意志。志者心也 "use one intention and resolve. resolve refers to the resolve of the heart." This means you need to use xin and yi together to practice power correctly. The meaning actually is considerably deeper than that if you look at it from the perspective of five element theory, but I won't get into that here.

I don't think anyone ever intended for Taiji to be practised without power, but certainly the way that taiji gets its power is considerably different than other martial arts. From what i saw of the article, he is constantly reinforcing that yin and yang need to be balanced in order to get the key practice of taiji.

[cloudz]

mix,

what are the lines for fire saying ?

curious.

[windwalker]

This echos some of what has been posted. Much of what people often question or talk about has been outlined by past masters of the art.
What I feel happens is that often people either dont know or ignore what has been written by past masters....

Part of this is due to the language and unavailability of translations,
part of this is that what is now open was at one time very closed not shown to outsiders..

太極輕重浮沉解
[22] TAIJI’S LIGHTNESS & HEAVINESS, FLOATING & SINKING

雙重為病干於填寔與沉不同也雙沉不為病自爾騰虛與重不易也雙浮為病祗如漂渺與輕不例也雙輕不為病天然清靈與浮不等也半輕半重不為病偏輕偏重為病半者半有著落也所以不為病偏者偏無著落也所以為病偏無著落必失方圓半有著落豈出方圓半浮半沉為病失於不及也偏浮偏沉失於太過也半重偏滯而不正也半輕偏輕靈而不圓也半沉偏沉虛而不正也半浮偏浮茫而不圓也夫雙輕不近於浮則為輕靈雙沉不近於重則為離虛故曰上手輕重半有著落則為平手除除此三者之外皆為病手蓋內之虛靈不昧能致於外氣之清明流行乎肢軆也若不窮硏輕重浮沉之手徒勞掘井不及泉之歎耳然有方圓四正之手表裏精粗無不到則已極大成又何云四隅出方圓矣所謂方而圓圓而方超乎象外得其寰中之上手也

– [1a] Both sides fully heavy [“double pressure”] is wrong. It is too full. It is different from sinking.
– [1b] Both sides fully sinking is okay. It has to do with being ready to move. It is different from heaviness.
– [1c] Both sides fully floating [“double vacuum”] is wrong. It is too empty. It is different from lightness.
– [1d] Both sides fully light is okay. It has to do with natural nimbleness. It is different from floating.

– [2a] One side under-light and one side under-heavy is okay. To underdo means one side is stable. Therefore it is okay. Since to underdo is stable, it will not lose squareness and roundness.

– [2b] One side over-light and one side over-heavy is wrong. To overdo means neither side is stable. Therefore it is wrong. Since to overdo is unstable, it will lose squareness and roundness.
– [2c] One side under-floating and one side under-sinking is wrong, for it is not enough.
– [2d] One side over-floating and one side over-sinking [is wrong, for it] is too much.
– [3a] One side under-heavy and one side over-heavy, you will be not only sluggish but also unsquared.
– [3b] One side under-light and one side over-light, you will still be nimble but you will be unrounded.
– [3c] One side under-sinking and one side over-sinking, you will still be balanced but you will be unsquared.
– [3d] One side under-floating and one side over-floating, you will be not only scattered but also unrounded.

Both sides fully light [1d] is not a matter of floating, and thus it is nimbleness. Both sides fully sinking [1b] is not a matter of heaviness, and thus it is alertness. Thus it is said: “The best technique is both light and heavy [2a], half and half, thus you will have a balanced technique.”Anything beyond these three [1b, 1d, 2a] would be wrong.


When your inner naturalness is not obscured, it can be sent outward as purified energy, flowing into your limbs. If you do not exhaustively study these aspects of technique – lightness, heaviness, floating, sinking – it would be like digging a dry well.

But if you possess squareness and roundness, then warding off, rolling back, pressing, and pushing will all be there inside and out down to their smallest detail, and you will have attained a great achievement, and then plucking, rending, elbowing, and bumping will also be squared and rounded. And so it is said: “Square but round, round but square.” Going beyond the shape [squareness OR roundness] takes you to the highest level [squareness AND roundness].

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

[windwalker]

太極力氣解
[27] STRENGTH & ENERGY IN TAIJI

氣走於膜胳筋脉力出於血肉皮骨故有力者皆外壯於皮骨形也有氣者是內壯於筋脉象也氣血功於內壯血氣功於外壯要之明於氣血二字之功能自知力氣之由來矣知氣力之所以然自能用力行氣之分別行氣於筋脉用力於皮骨大不相侔也

Energy courses through the tissues, limbs, sinews, and vessels. Strength emerges from the blood, muscles, skin, and bones. Therefore a strong person has an outer robustness to their skin and bones, a matter of posture, while an energized person has an inner robustness to their sinews and vessels, a matter of presence.

Training the energy and blood with emphasis on the energy will empower the internal. Training the blood and energy with emphasis on the blood will enhance the external

If you awaken to the functions of these two things, both the energy and the blood, you will naturally come to understand the basis of strength and energy. Understanding what strength and energy are all about, you will naturally be able to distinguish between the using of strength and the moving of energy: the moving of energy will be felt in your sinews and vessels, while the using of strength will be felt in your skin and bones – extremely different things indeed.

In reading the translations what I often note is the clarity by which the distinctions are made.

Understanding what strength and energy are all about, you will naturally be able to distinguish between the using of strength and the moving of energy: the moving of energy will be felt in your sinews and vessels, while the using of strength will be felt in your skin and bones – extremely different things indeed.

[D_Glenn]

Here's a quote back from 2009, it's a better translation, I think, then Brennan's posted above:

Omar,

this is all well explained in the Old (Yang) Family Manual already.
"Zhong" (heavy) is associated with "qing" (light) while "chen" (sinking) is associated with "fu" (floating).
Here is the complete text for your reference:

太極輕重浮沉解

雙重為病，干於填寔，與沉不同也。
雙沉不為病，自爾騰虛，與重不易也。
雙浮為病，祗如漂渺，與輕不例也。
雙輕不為病，天然清靈，與浮不等也。
半輕半重不為病，偏輕偏重為病。
半者，半有落也，所以不為病。
偏者偏無著落也，所以為病。偏無著落，必失方圓。
半有著落豈出方圓，半浮半沉為病，失於不及也。偏浮偏沉，失於太過也。
半重偏滯而不正也。半輕偏靈而不圓也。
半沉偏沉，虛而不正也。半浮偏浮，茫而不圓也。
夫雙輕不近於浮，則為輕靈。雙沉不近於重，則為離虛。
故曰，上手輕重，半有著落，則為平手。除此三者之外，皆為病手。
蓋內之虛靈不昧，能致於外氣之清明，流行乎肢體也。
若不窮研輕重浮沉之手，徒勞掘井不及泉之歎耳然有方圓四正之手。
表裏精粗無不到，則已極大成。
又何云四隅出方圓矣。所謂方而圓，而方，超乎象外，得其寰中之上手也。

Best

YM

Translation:






Wuyizidi

.

[D_Glenn]

And a note about circle and square:

Translation:
Once the circular and rectangular is in the four main skills, in everything from inside to outside, coarse to detailed, then the high level mastery is achieved. Then, what of the talk about transcending the circular and rectangular with the four supplementary skills? Rectangular but also round, circular and also rectangular, going beyond mere external appearances, such is the way to achieve ‘high level hand’.


Wuyizidi

Would this have a similar reference to bajiquan? Liu Yun Qiao talked about the square as structure, circle as roundness and triangle as power---the square within the circle within the square the triangle. Having all three then represented a high level of skill attainment.

Here the rectangular/square refers to the four main skills of Taiji Quan (peng, lu, ji, an) and the four supplementary skills (cai, lie, zhou, kao). In ancient times, before we have the understanding of the natural world we have today, Chinese people though "heaven is round while the earth is square (rectangular)". Heaven is thought to be round because it envelops the earth, and seemingly without boundaries and seams. Earth was thought to be square in that you can readily assign the four cardinal directions and four diagonal directions, delineate it in a grid-like manner ("earth is like a go board").

In Chinese culture people believed Dao, the universal principle, can explain every thing in this world. So even people in what was considered "low-level" pursuits try to explain and elevate what they do by mapping it to those high-level philosophical principles. In this way the 5 main skills of Xingyi where mapped to 5 elements, the 8 palms of Bagua Zhang mapped to 8 trigrams, and the 4 main skills and 4 supplementary skills of Taiji mapped to coordinates of earth in Chinese cosmology. If you have the earth (4 cardinal + 4 corner skills) and the heaven (circles), then you have everything right?

Today it's hard to say how we got internal martial art skills: did people think "this is way Dao works, the soft can overcome the hard, how do we apply it to martial art?", or did martial art skill get to a point of high efficiency where people start to connect the dots: "hey, through clever timing and direction and manipulation of other aspects of force (not just speed and power, but also angle, direction, duration, etc), in this case we successfully dealt with a large force of this type using a smaller force of this type, this is soft overcoming the hard! Let's investigate it further, because according to Dao we should be able to deal with all types of forces in a similar manner..." My guess is it's probably the later.

The abstract principles of Daoism does a great job of explaining how and why internal martial art skills work on a physical level. However we need to be aware of the cultural tendency mentioned above, and be careful of its inherent pitfalls in trying to find one-to-one correspondence between martial art and philosophy/religion:

• Traditionally people say there are 36 (one of those magic numbers) main types of jin (trained force) in Taiji Quan. In reality there are more than 36 basic types. So her we need to be careful not to miss something important.
  
  
• On the other hand, in the overall scheme of things, historical martial art is a small dao (xiao dao). Meaning what we're trying to do is simple - try to kill another person with bare hands and some simple tools. It's not solving the world financial crisis. It is but a tiny subset (very partial one at that, not a perfect microcosm) of our overall experience of life, universe, and everything. So it's futile to map 64 palms of our form to the all-encompassing, rich, dense layers of meanings that are embedded in Yi Jing's 64 trigrams.

Wuyizidi

[cloudz]

mix,

what are the lines for fire saying ?

curious.

My apologies, re-reading your post I see you mentioned it. It's pretty interesting..

I wouldn't mind hearing some deeper theory from someone like yourself mix - I think you have a nice knack for this and obviously many of us know you a bit and your background. If you get time to share more of this stuff, please do.

You mention fire can be controlled, would you say that applies to water too and if not why not.. Maybe that's the wrong way to think about it, but I am starting to get more curious about some of this bagua business.. I had some 'work' with the Japanese five elements with my first teacher, and I really enjoyed the training of them, but it was very much meditation based and carrying that over into some representative forms/postures and getting certain feeling in the body/mind and linking / associating them with a hand position (seal/kuji) .. ninja stuff basically.. not so much theory then

nice to see you posting again btw.

[junglist]

I tend to practice more consistent with the following quotes from the same book translation:

From song two (Brennan translation): “Although each place has a part that is empty and a part that is full, I understand where the emptiness is and the fullness, and that everywhere there is this condition of an emptiness and a fullness.”

From song three (Brennan translation): "When the passive and active aspects cannot be distinguished, that is the state of nonpolarity. From nonpolarity arises grand polarity, in which passive and active, or emptiness and fullness, become distinguishable. As soon as I make a movement, passive and active become distinguishable – grand polarity."

From song four (Brennan translation): "If an opponent uses force and I relax my strength, then even if he uses great force, I can still neutralize and yield. This is a case of dropping one side, keeping me able to move. If he uses force and I also apply force, this is a situation of two people resisting against each other, and ultimately the one with the greatest strength would be the winner. This is a case of equal pressure, in which I would end up getting stuck. It is the greatest thing to avoid in Taiji."

Also from song four (Brennan translation): "If you wish to avoid the error of double pressure, you have to understand the passive and active aspects. Passive and active means emptiness and fullness, as well as indirect and direct. When I encounter an opponent, if I feel a situation of double pressure, I then sink away one side so there is both emptiness (passive) and fullness (active)."

Also from song four (Brennan translation): "Do not allow a situation of double pressure, instead give attention to dropping one side."

To me, having empty and full everywhere exemplifies the state of being on the “S-curve” separating the yin from the yang in the taiji diagram. The Taiji diagram is the cycling of yin and yang; it is not yin without yang.

Many people lose the yin part when they interact with another, and thus resist with the double pressure of yang/yang. The correction then is typically to seek one side yielding in order to create yang/yin (or yin/yang). I would disagree with seeking yin on BOTH sides because that creates the double pressure of yin/yin (collapse).

To me, the reason for emphasizing the relaxation (yin) side of the equation is that martially we are typically responding to force, and thus need to be reminded to have yin on one side instead of yang on both sides.

Being yang/yang is using effort and is different, as I understand it, from being yin/yang or yang/yin. Although I can see how someone might interpret the Taijiquan sayings as implying everywhere being soft (i.e., yin/yin), this is not the way that I understand the philosophy. The quoted sayings correct double pressure by sinking or dropping ONE side, NOT both sides.

Gonna be a pain in the ass to explain but:

I think yin/yin (sinking on both sides) is good practice for emitting jin forces (push-out exercises) especially when the other guy is giving you yang/yang double pressure. It's hard to explain here but push-out exercises where you have to balance forces give you good sensitivity for maintaining dynamic balance in an encounter. Although I do agree that yin/yang has eventually to be worked especially in grappling/clinching and in striking--nobody punches both their weight on the ground and using that weight to produce Jin-powered punch in both hands. One side has to sink for their other side's hand to be launched out for a strike. Or the sinking side's hand could be launched out. In either case, one side has to sink.

[LaoDan]

I think yin/yin (sinking on both sides) is good practice for emitting jin forces (push-out exercises) especially when the other guy is giving you yang/yang double pressure. It's hard to explain here but push-out exercises where you have to balance forces give you good sensitivity for maintaining dynamic balance in an encounter. Although I do agree that yin/yang has eventually to be worked especially in grappling/clinching and in striking--nobody punches both their weight on the ground and using that weight to produce Jin-powered punch in both hands. One side has to sink for their other side's hand to be launched out for a strike. Or the sinking side's hand could be launched out. In either case, one side has to sink.

I’ll address this in I Liq Chuan terms, since it is so clear and I do not know of an easy way to state it using TJQ sources. Plus, as has been pointed out, I practice both TJQ and ILC.

In ILC, responses can be divided into “hardware” and “software.” When talking about the point of contact I was essentially talking about “hardware” and I suspect that it would apply to your specific application. Note that yin + yang can occur in multiple planes. For example, for contact on your forearm, you can pivot such that your elbow goes away from them (yin) while your wrist goes toward them (yang), or the reverse. But you can also roll your forearm such that the top of the forearm goes away from them (yin) while the bottom goes toward them (yang), or the reverse.

For example, in a Chen style TJQ one handed ~vertical figure-8 like pushing drill, the palm alternates between palm up and palm down, while the forearm tilts alternately from a higher wrist to a higher elbow... This is doing yin + yang on two planes simultaneously.

“Software” is the movement of the “hardware” through space. If you are moving in circles (or arcs, spirals, etc.) then you are probably creating yin + yang (perhaps without realizing it). I suspect that if you perform your specific move (“push-out exercises”) in a linear manner, it will not be as effective or as effortless as if you used a circle or an arc to do it. Likewise, if you use yin + yang “hardware” at the point of contact, the exercise should also be more effective and use less effort.

You want yin + yang at the point of contact as well as yin + yang when moving that point of contact through space.

We are starting to get into things that are easier to understand through feel than to write about, but I hope that this helps.

[junglist]

I think yin/yin (sinking on both sides) is good practice for emitting jin forces (push-out exercises) especially when the other guy is giving you yang/yang double pressure. It's hard to explain here but push-out exercises where you have to balance forces give you good sensitivity for maintaining dynamic balance in an encounter. Although I do agree that yin/yang has eventually to be worked especially in grappling/clinching and in striking--nobody punches both their weight on the ground and using that weight to produce Jin-powered punch in both hands. One side has to sink for their other side's hand to be launched out for a strike. Or the sinking side's hand could be launched out. In either case, one side has to sink.

“Software” is the movement of the “hardware” through space. If you are moving in circles (or arcs, spirals, etc.) then you are probably creating yin + yang (perhaps without realizing it). I suspect that if you perform your specific move (“push-out exercises”) in a linear manner, it will not be as effective or as effortless as if you used a circle or an arc to do it. Likewise, if you use yin + yang “hardware” at the point of contact, the exercise should also be more effective and use less effort.
.

Well practicing push out exercises with the purpose of using Jin to push the other guy out (not using force) can be included in using yin-yang at the point of contact (which I suspect is hand advancing, wrist receding or vice versa). If you do it correctly, pushing another person out linearly using Jin is effortless.

However, I believe that a fight goes beyond standing square and pushing another person out. The body needs to change (adapt) in a fight and this requires training in yin-yang (one side sinking, one side rising). Practicing Jin is good for giving you sensitivity on not pushing with force and keeping your balance as a force is imposed upon you.