Sparring in CMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:51 pm

Trapping in TCMA is so important. It just means to make contact with one or more limb for a split second to hold them up and allow for the next technique to reach its target. Almost all of the techniques that I use can and usually do involve trapping. Trapping doesn't always require contact and can be used both offensively and defensively. They are usually cyclic or back-and-forth motions that either distract the opponent or inhibit their movement so as to land the next technique. Flowing from one to the other makes it very difficult for your opponent to predict and defend against them.

Think of them is a combination, much like the jab-straight-jab or jab-straight-hook, except that if they make contact they momentarily limit your opponents range of motion. If done properly (which requires many months, years of foundation training), these will also destroy their balance upon contact. Whether to execute a strike, throw or Qinna technique after trapping is up to you. Note that I am referring more to the trapping in arts like XYQ, BGZ, TJQ, Tanglangquan etc. and less so to Yongchunquan (Wing Chun) orother southern arts, with which I have less experience.

The rest of my hand techniques are more like Tongbeiquan or Piguaquan, devastating whips and swings (for lack of a better word), usually aided by gravity and/or full-body power, especially from the waist. All TCMA have these to one extent or another.

Arts like Changquan (from what I have seen) look more like Karate or Sanda when in use, as most of their training is exaggerated low stances meant to improve the foundation, but even then we still see a lot of the whipping and swinging-type moves.

It is the focus on these techniques (because boxing has some trapping as well) and more that separate TCMA from kickboxing and what sets them worlds apart and therefore quite distinguishable from each other. That is simply not what any reasonably knowledgeable person can see in the videos above.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Steve James on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:48 pm

Maybe, just maybe with all the thousands of gung fu styles and sub-styles, one flavor might be Chow Mein and another could be Beijing Duck, but is takes one ignorant bastard to declare the other non-traditional because it lacks his noodles!!!

Only on RSF!


Naw, it's the same with Italian food. Try to find a canoli in northern Italy ;)
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby shoebox55 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:05 am

MaartenSFS wrote:


I don't do Sanda. I do TCMA. They are different. They look different. I'm not saying that there are no overlaps, but it looks fucking different. The techniques are different. The strategies are different. Any teacher that claims to teach CMA should be able to use what he has learned and it shouldn't look like fucking Sanda. It also shouldn't look like a girly tantrum or Tuishou. There is no big secret here.



Thanks for your comments. Could you provide a link to a video that you have seen that demonstrates TCMA sparring?
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:20 am

shoebox55 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:


I don't do Sanda. I do TCMA. They are different. They look different. I'm not saying that there are no overlaps, but it looks fucking different. The techniques are different. The strategies are different. Any teacher that claims to teach CMA should be able to use what he has learned and it shouldn't look like fucking Sanda. It also shouldn't look like a girly tantrum or Tuishou. There is no big secret here.



Thanks for your comments. Could you provide a link to a video that you have seen that demonstrates TCMA sparring?



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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:22 am

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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:40 am

GrahamB wrote:Image

That Guy has pretty good structure without muscles, must have done a lot of IMA in his days.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Fatal Rose on Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:12 pm

Never intended this thread to turn into a flame war.

My two cents....

I study Shotokan Karate, when we spar it clearly looks like karate. When Karate guys like Lyoto Machida and Stephen Thompson fight in MMA, they're clearly using Karate. They aren't kick boxing.

That's what I want to see with IMA/TCMA. I don't expect people to jump into the UFC and become the champ. But Sparring methods/rules needs to be developed in TCMA/IMA that keeps the flavor of the art when they spar. Or compete against other arts. Maybe it's already being done and I'm just ignorant to it?
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:12 am

Fatal Rose wrote:Has anyone successfully incorporated sparring into their gongfu classes?

I used to use sparring as warm up in the beginning of the class. Students will make 2 circles. The one in the inside circle will spar with the one in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the inside circle will rotate and everybody will get a new sparring partner.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:52 am

As long as you and the person you spar follow the same rules you can use TCMA in pretty much any format and it will still look like TCMA. When I spar with boxers they look like they are boxing and I look like I am doing TCMA.

As to why I don't have videos, people in China care a lot about face and I'm not about to lose sparring partners or not be welcome in a group because I want to get videos of me beating them at their own game.. Plus, before I left my master I was training my balls off every day to learn as much as I could and not thinking much about getting you evidence you should already have if you really do train TCMA and can use it. I just wrote a lengthy explanation that was conveniently ignored. Where are your videos? I only saw Sanda. Where are your TCMA videos?

I will admit that low level CMA is almost indistinguishable from other MA. Sloppy punches and haymakers. It takes a while to get comfortable enough in the range where a lot of TCMA techniques are applied - to be able to control your opponents limbs. Anyone that claims to be doing Taijiquan should be in as much contact with their opponent as humanly possible and striking, kicking, throwing and locking them from nearly zero distance. The same is true to different extents in all TCMA. Some sloppy punches and kicks and some good throws does not constitute TCMA. Not even close.

I put many Taijiquan techniques into the core of my art. Yunshou, Quedilong and Lianzhupao are amongst the 12 core techniques and Ce Dengjiao, Jinji Duli, Jingang Daodui, Baihe Liangchi, Yema Fenzong, Yunv Chuansuo, Cajiao, Danbian, Duanzhou, and Shuangzhuangchui are in the free fighting system which consists of 18 entering techniques and 22 follow-up techniques (although entering techniques can be used to follow-up and vice versa) (the 12 core techniques can also be found here again). 90% of kicks are done with an accompanying hand technique (something common to TCMA as well). In EVERY single example that I just listed above one or more hand is controlling a limb or other part of the opponent (even if for only a split second) whilst the other is striking or kicking/throwing.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby shoebox55 on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:04 am

MaartenSFS wrote:As to why I don't have videos, people in China care a lot about face and I'm not about to lose sparring partners or not be welcome in a group because I want to get videos of me beating them at their own game.. Plus, before I left my master I was training my balls off every day to learn as much as I could and not thinking much about getting you evidence you should already have if you really do train TCMA and can use it. I just wrote a lengthy explanation that was conveniently ignored.

.


I was just asking if you have ever come across videos that demonstrated TCMA sparring on the internet. I thought maybe you would’ve seen this on youtube or elsewhere, have you by chance? I understood already that you personally dont have first hand videos.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby bartekb on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:06 am

As to why I don't have videos, people in China care a lot about face and I'm not about to lose sparring partners or not be welcome in a group because I want to get videos of me beating them at their own game..

Arent you affrad when you use your full power people gonna die?
a silly suggestion - maybe compete just once? then you can just easily film it,
usually - chinese or not - people that train boxing/mt/bjj/mma or any other grappling style (ie. John Wangs students on this forum) dont mind beeing filmed AT ALL - just go compete in any format that suits your deadly style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os3HM3hPOZc - thats me white belt open - my first bjj comp ever like 4 years , of course it looks like low level bjj stuff:):)
I only saw Sanda. Where are your TCMA videos?

the guy showed you videos of his students sparring and competing - not only he has goods he can teach it
you showed us shit.
Last edited by bartekb on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:46 pm

When did I ever brag about my stuff being too deadly??? Sorry that my purpose in training isn't to produce evidence of the magical unicorn that is TCMA. I always assumed that people doing TCMA knew that it didn't look like Sanda. My mistake.. And not all people are interested in competing, especially after I injured my foot several years ago..

And why do I care about BJJ? We're talking about TCMA, aren't we?
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:22 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I always assumed that people doing TCMA knew that it didn't look like Sanda.

Since I have never seen any Sanda guy ever use "rhino guard", "zombie arms", and "double spears". I have to agree with you on this. If my guys don't use those 3 strategies in fighting, they don't need to be my students.

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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Strange on Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:59 pm

GrahamB wrote:Image


why dun you get off your arse and make one...
and show everyone you really can't do it as well
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:29 pm

I call bullshit...
the question is being avoided.

The request was for any example online of traditional Chinese sparring as opposed to sanda.

The bjj was a very noble effort to encourage helpful sharing of information and overcoming "face" by a gentleman posting one of his first bouts in the sport and legitimately asking for some competition footage as such formats are not populated with camera shy individuals...


But the bullshit evasion speaks for itself.
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