Taiji and Wrestling

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Taiji and Wrestling

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:20 am

What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling? The difference can be less than you may think.

In Taiji PH, sometime you may end with:

- One of your feet is in front of your opponent.
- One of your feet is behind him.
- 1/2 of your body is in front of him.
- 1/2 of your body is behind him.

As showing in the following picture, if your leading hand can guide your opponent's leading arm across his body to jam his back arm, you can pull his

- leading leg with your back hand.
- back leg with both hands.

If at the same time, you use your head and upper body to push your opponent, he will be down. This map to the wrestling "single leg" and "double legs" strategy (get both legs if you can, otherwise get leading leg). In Taiji PH, the wrestling opportunity is always there. Whether you want to use that opportunity to train your wrestling skill will be up to you.

Your thought?

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:00 am

"What's the difference between Taiji(Quan) and wrestling? ".....Many TJQ practitioners like to 'intellectually'theorize about TJ principles. While wrestlers just wrestle, and eventually come to know TJ principles without putting a single thought about such concepts...........probably. But yes otherwise there are many technical similarities.
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:00 am

I agree about them realising tai chi principles
One of the softest men I worked with was George Barns the wrestler
Some of you might know him because he toured the states several times
I remember throwing a punch at him ,he slipped it one arm snaked around my leg and he lifted me above his head
He said now the hard part is to drop you feet first
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:59 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bamRklL_0r4

Some of the best "Taiji" out there?
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby Bao on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:07 am

Trick wrote:Many TJQ practitioners like to 'intellectually'theorize about TJ principles. While wrestlers just wrestle, and eventually come to know TJ principles without putting a single thought about such concepts...........probably.


If tai chi principles come naturally, no one would argue about tai chi push hands competitors were hard and didn't do tai chi. You would also see them in play everywhere in wrestling matches, judo etc. But I at least have seen very, very little of that. If you don't have a method to teach and study different skill sets, sure, you might be able to "get it" anyway. But it would probably take a much longer time and how well you understand what you do and how well you translate your knowledge or experience might not be as consistent as if you focused your training on the same skill sets. I don't care what you call these skills or skill set, if people regard it as "tai chi" or not. I know that there are SC, Judo and Jujutsu schools that are very, very soft, just as Tai Chi. But they do have methods and well developed curriculums to study these principles.

If you add wrestling techniques, fine. That is not a question on use of principles. If you want to apply certain principles to your wrestling techniques would be a more interesting question, IMO.
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby middleway on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:11 am

What's the difference between Taiji(Quan) and wrestling?


Striking and Body method would be immediate ideas. Technically there are alot of similarities in the stand up grappling side IMO.

But the outlook is different.

Wrestling - I try to change my opponent.
Taiji - I try to change myself and the opponent is along for the ride.

The pro's and cons of these two approaches are many and both have the plus' and minus'.

thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:02 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Many TJQ practitioners like to 'intellectually'theorize about TJ principles. While wrestlers just wrestle, and eventually come to know TJ principles without putting a single thought about such concepts...........probably.


If tai chi principles come naturally, no one would argue about tai chi push hands competitors were hard and didn't do tai chi. You would also see them in play everywhere in wrestling matches, judo etc. But I at least have seen very, very little of that. If you don't have a method to teach and study different skill sets, sure, you might be able to "get it" anyway. But it would probably take a much longer time and how well you understand what you do and how well you translate your knowledge or experience might not be as consistent as if you focused your training on the same skill sets. I don't care what you call these skills or skill set, if people regard it as "tai chi" or not. I know that there are SC, Judo and Jujutsu schools that are very, very soft, just as Tai Chi. But they do have methods and well developed curriculums to study these principles.

If you add wrestling techniques, fine. That is not a question on use of principles. If you want to apply certain principles to your wrestling techniques would be a more interesting question, IMO.

Yes 'you have to see it to believe it' is a good proof measurment, but in these cases one might(should?) also add - feel it to believe it -
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:23 pm

When you train Taiji "diagonal fly", you may train how to use your shoulder to push your opponent back. Do you ever train how to pick up your opponent's leading leg, or back leg?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby BruceP on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:00 pm

johnwang wrote:Do you ever train how to pick up your opponent's leading leg, or back leg?


Pick-up-needle and Snake-creeps-down
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby BruceP on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:00 pm

johnwang wrote:What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling?


Neutrality Principle
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:38 pm

Could you explain what you mean by that
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:35 pm

A match made in heaven per the 'shuai" (throwing) element along with entry and ending features!
Add the na (grab)and zhou (elbow/forearm! ??? ) elements elements and you have a formidable art!
Last edited by yeniseri on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:20 pm

johnwang wrote:When you train Taiji "diagonal fly", you may train how to use your shoulder to push your opponent back. Do you ever train how to pick up your opponent's leading leg, or back leg?

The pick up the opponent's legs is something i often practise with my YTJQ teacher, but then he is also a ShuaiJiao teacher.
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Re: Taiji and Wrestling

Postby northern_mantis on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:32 am

MaartenSFS wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bamRklL_0r4

Some of the best "Taiji" out there?


I've come to the conclusion that some of the best Tai Chi is to be found outside of the Tai Chi world. This being a good example. That's not to disparage everybody within Tai Chi, just my current path to look elsewhere for inspiration for combat or health.
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