Fajin Clips

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[MaartenSFS]

Subitai, you misunderstood me. My point was that many strikes in boxing require set-up as well, not that we should use boxing combos in TCMA (I don't). Fajin is not setting up for the perfect strike. It's how we generate power for every strike.. (except for the swinging types, though there is some overlap)

[voidisyinyang]

https://wuhaotaichi.com/fajin/

Is anyone familiar with this teacher? Maybe there's a "clip" on youtube.

But I did meet Effie P. Chow who does a similar fajin demonstration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXhAMv7PDOA

She blew the fuse in the room behind her at St. Mary's University in 1995 - that was the first time I had experience qi. the security guard wandered in after almost everyone was gone, "wondering what was going on because the fuse got blown in the room behind you." hilarious.

I was so skeptical beforehand I called the number on the flyer and asked for my admission price to be lowered. She cut it by half - so I paid $10 - along with my girlfriend paying $10.

[Subitai]

I never said which types of 3 strikes I used to dislodge a 200lb heavy bag. In fact one of them was "Gi or jee" = i.e. forward / press from Yang Taiji done with fajing. Executed from extremely close to the bag.

You make me laugh dude... the crux of my post was about "Set up" and yet right after the fact, you are speaking about set up required for proper fajing???

I think you lost me. You just said (in the previous post) "All it takes, is for your opponent to partially block/deflect, or to BOB / slip your power...or to Yield just enough that it diminishes some of your power and it will not be 100%". This is why you said you train vs. different body types (ex. tall guy, short guy) and mention the position of the elbow. Correct? Did you mean something else? What did I miss?

In the 1st part I was reflecting on my own experiences...then I expounded upon other concepts in developing set up.

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MaartenSFS,

I guess I didn't catch that your questions about jab were rhetorical.

[MaartenSFS]

And now that you caught it, what do you think? Since you say that you have learned how to Fajin, why not test it with a jab?

Guo Yunshen was said to be unstoppable with his half-step Bengquan, which is a rear-handed technique (in most cases) and requires some set-up. In doesn't mean that he did the same thing every time, only that he had many ways for setting up his Bengquan, just as there are many ways to set up a cross or uppercut, for example. Fajin is only a different way of generating power. Having to set up your techniques, especially with the rear hand, is common amongst all styles..

[Subitai]

And now that you caught it, what do you think? Since you say that you have learned how to Fajin, why not test it with a jab?

Guo Yunshen was said to be unstoppable with his half-step Bengquan, which is a rear-handed technique (in most cases) and requires some set-up. In doesn't mean that he did the same thing every time, only that he had many ways for setting up his Bengquan, just as there are many ways to set up a cross or uppercut, for example. Fajin is only a different way of generating power. Having to set up your techniques, especially with the rear hand, is common amongst all styles..

From what I learned about Fajin and how I like to jab...there's no need. It's a personal choice. But I am a counter fighter primarily, I might attack to get a reaction but I still prefer to get the energy I want coming my way... and then follow.

The way you describe your Jab with Fajin...it's not my cuppa if you follow me but again that's by choice. Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes... it's just the way it is.

I'm not against anyone's preferences, I was just adding my views to the discussion.

[MaartenSFS]

That's fine, mate. Everyone has their own way of fighting..

EDIT: I like to get my opponent to chase me and then run into some of these hard strikes. Other than my Fajin jab, I usually use swinging techniques when attacking.

[Trick]

And now that you caught it, what do you think? Since you say that you have learned how to Fajin, why not test it with a jab?

Guo Yunshen was said to be unstoppable with his half-step Bengquan, which is a rear-handed technique (in most cases) and requires some set-up. In doesn't mean that he did the same thing every time, only that he had many ways for setting up his Bengquan, just as there are many ways to set up a cross or uppercut, for example. Fajin is only a different way of generating power. Having to set up your techniques, especially with the rear hand, is common amongst all styles..

I'm most certainly not an experienced fighter and do not know about fighting tactics so please excuse my silly question-what is a 'set up' ? During my years practicing Karate we just sparred(fought) and I trough that learned some moves(feints) that 'pulled out' an desired reaction from the opponent, is this considered being a set up? Otherwise what was considered important(most important?) was/is correct distancing, correct timing and to be able to execute non telegraphic attacks, when built up these skills, leading punch(jab?) and reverse punch(beng quan?) to torso or head would be enough tools to have, no particular set up would be necessary.

[MaartenSFS]

I'm quite far from being a champion, myself..

A set-up could be a feint or it could be a combination of techniques designed to open your opponent's defence and get a good blow in. Along with the other points that you mentioned, it's a critical component of fighting.

[Trick]

The Karate club I was a member at had many high level competitors (I was not one of them) Two stood out, one mainly used his leading punch/kizami tzuki(karate jab) it was just beautifully executed great timing and non telegraphic, the other one with the same skill but with the reverse punch. When sparred with them,one knew what was coming but never when, then just BAM! you where hit. As you might know but disagree with, in executing Karate techniques one is supposed to do it with more or less Fajin(in Karate terminology called Kime). I remember the high level fighters did not put any particular focus on Kime/Fajin.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[Bao]

I remember the high level fighters did not put any particular focus on Kime/Fajin.

Seems correct. Fajin is IMO just a result of certain types of body techniques. The focus should IMO be more on storing, less on releasing. And also more on hiding the body method, not on showing it off.

[MaartenSFS]

I agree with you, Trick. They should have already learned how to Fajin earlier in their training and can now focus on using it, after it just becomes instinct. Did you ever get hit by one? It should have felt different from a normal punch, even a very good normal punch (very sudden and shocking). Also, as Bao was eluding to, the better you become, the less obvious it will be..

[Subitai]

I never said which types of 3 strikes I used to dislodge a 200lb heavy bag. In fact one of them was "Gi or jee" = i.e. forward / press from Yang Taiji done with fajing. Executed from extremely close to the bag.

You make me laugh dude... the crux of my post was about "Set up" and yet right after the fact, you are speaking about set up required for proper fajing???

I think you lost me. You just said (in the previous post) "All it takes, is for your opponent to partially block/deflect, or to BOB / slip your power...or to Yield just enough that it diminishes some of your power and it will not be 100%". This is why you said you train vs. different body types (ex. tall guy, short guy) and mention the position of the elbow. Correct? Did you mean something else? What did I miss?

In the 1st part I was reflecting on my own experiences...then I expounded upon other concepts in developing set up.

Well then it seems I was right, your set up is not the set up I was talking about. The kind of setup you are talking about appears to be based on physical mechanics. The kind of setup I am talking about is based on sensitivity (ting jing). So when you say that your fajin wouldn't work 100% against an opponent who bobbed or moved, and that by setup you meant the position of the elbow (etc) I can tell you that you are using theories from external martial arts (which I am classifying as arts which use percentage techniques or physical set-ups such as those you listed). The reason why I classify sensitivity based set-ups as internal is because they simply do not work without internal power, you have no set up without the nei gong. On the other side of the coin, you can drive external techniques with internal power and add a lot of force and strength to them that way, and I suppose it is a sort of fajing, but it is not the fajing I am talking about. Especially not any kind of "fajing" which will allow you to "strike a heavy bag with peng (ward-off) posture". Saying this shows a lack of understanding of what peng is in the first place. It's kind of like talking about xingyi's hua jin stage as if it were demonstrable with ming jin. I think it is very important to keep these terms separate because "we're not all doing the same thing", especially not cross-art (xingyi to bagua to taiji).

Now I don't know xingyi or other arts very well but let me tell you how it is in taijiquan, generally, first you practice ting jing and then you work on identifying and separating out peng, lu, ji and an. Once you have these four in counterplay that is one thing. At this stage however there is absolutely no need to "fajing". If the opponent moves slowly, we move slowly. If the opponent moves quickly, we move quickly. From this we gain further ting jing and dong jing (understanding energy). Actually I have come to believe that fa jing as an expression or a term is not even really a "thing" in taijiquan from the standpoint of ideal use. The idea of suddenly striking your opponent from an open position seems odd in the first place. Of course, it can be done. And I suppose there are times and places you want to do it. So when I turn to the classics I read that there are four stages to fa jing in taijiquan.

One, float. Float the enemy by breaking his root, borrowing his force.
Two, load. load him onto your structure, drawing him towards your center or to nothingness,
Three, relax into your structure (relax without without collapsing your structure).
Four, release. The power shoots out from the legs and waist through the turning points to hit the target.

It should be noted then that float implies you are basing this off of a structure of peng-lu-etc. and without such sensitivity and build-up (set up) you can not properly fa-jing. It would just be a blind technique. This is just the prerequisite for taijiquan, im sure in other arts they do things slightly differently (like the position of the elbow in hung gar as you mentioned).

Wow, you extrapolated all that about me from a few sentences? Haha, go ahead with your bad self! You assume way too much.

That's the problem with the medium of using words...unless you're super descriptive people will fill in the blanks with their own assumptions. Which is why lately I've attempted to be more short in my responses (probably not a good thing) ... now that it's summer, other than kung fu, I'd rather be Bass Fishing on a lake than behind the computer. (which is why I disappear from here from time to time)

The bulk of my internals comes from Yang (Ku) style and Sun style = taiji, xingyi, bagua. Those San Ti, i.e. 3 embodiments of CIMA are linked together via basic skills across all three. We learned this concept from Sun Jian Yun directly, when she was alive, she was considered one of the top 5 living treasures of CMA knowledge base. So unless you have done what i've done, you cannot make those assumptions about me. I certainly don't about you.

Ting Jin is nothing more than listening skill...even western wrestlers/grapplers have great Ting Jin because of the LARGE surface area of contact between their bodies.

You're taking things that I was saying to both Marten and yourself and mashing them together. This whole time, I've been trying very hard "NOT to make a mountain out of a mole hill"

Damn I hate writing a book, here goes If I wanted to use traditional Yang "Ji" or forward / press in a Fajin way, it absolutely can be done. The crux of the problem the is the set up....as I was first to point out. When a force such as a punch or push comes to me:
- I might connect or create a stick point with Grasp sparrows tail. Do I ward off his initial energy or do I wait to see what he wants to tell me? It depends on his attack. (listen)
- Depending on how he reacts (listen), next I might roll the bones of my forearm away (ward off with Peng), the 2 bones are Radius and Ulna and they are in parallel. I could say allot more here about this but it would sway off topic.
-At this point if he has become "Empty" already...then he is SET UP for "JI" (forward / press) for example to the ribs OR through his arm directly through his structure or his face if he lost balance and came forward into target.
-If he was not empty and he has better skill, he might attempt to continue his attack.
- Now there is Lu, i.e. roll back and in my school ...to allow him to fall into emptiness if at all possible (nothing is ever guaranteed in fighting) If I can achieve that, then he is once again SET UP for a perfect fajin Strike.

* I'd like to point out, that was the crux of the whole deal: it really doesn't matter what kind of strike you use at that point because the hard part of setting him up was achieved.

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Or I could just do what MaartenSFS said and just punch the dude outright...thus It would be leading the way. I was just telling him I prefer not to lead the way too much as it exposes me. I just do it in bits and pieces.

But in this method, "All it takes, is for your opponent to partially block/deflect, or to BOB / slip your power...or to Yield just enough that it diminishes some of your power and it will not be 100%".

MaartenSFS didn't seem to mind that and pointed out it would still be effective for him, regardless. cool.

I was only interested in the 100%, because I was pointing out that people will not stand there and let you deliver a perfect (fight ending strike) Hence the set up...blah, blah blah....this is all cyclical at this point.

[MaartenSFS]

I think that it's important not to over-commit as well. Makes it harder to recover. If your Fajin is supposed to be a one-hit KO then it's easy to leave yourself exposed (I put some into most of my strikes). The way that I do it is like cracking a whip in that it snaps out and back, ready for the next one and back, but the force is coming from my core (through my root), hence the penetration. I can set up combinations like this, as I can use the force of it snapping back for the next technique (usually not another punch). This is similar to the Taji forms in that I can transition from a Fajin into another technique seamlessly. Generally, people will want to get out of the way.