Fajin Clips

[zhenwu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff64ZBnj9MA

=)

[Rhen]

fajin is over rated, show me a clip of it being effectively used in a fight vs a resisting opponent (not friend, or student).

John Wang has it right. just hit a heavy bag. there is your fajin!

[MaartenSFS]

It's only overrated if you're doing/using it wrong. Anyways, I can tell that most of you guys have never seen/felt/learned/used proper Fajin, so my words are falling on deaf ears. Perhaps it would help to think less of how Fajin is used in Taijiquan and more of how it's used in XYQ, XYLHQ, Bajiquan etc. I've seen plenty of videos of practitioners of those arts that can't Fajin, but also some that can. The XYQ master that I studied with here had great, crisp power for a man of 72 years old!

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjc1MjE2MzAyNA==.html
Zhang Binghai, a Xinyiliuhequan master from Henan is the most skilled that I've ever met. In this clip he looks super relaxed, but his Fajin is in-fucking-credible. Feels like getting hit by a train. All of his strikes do. He moves like a panther, not even human anymore.

[johnwang]

fajin is over rated, ...

Agree with you 100% there.

Every time when we talk about Fajin, I always like to put up these 2 clips. You can see that it takes about 1 second for both Fajin masters to "compress" before they can "release". In real fighting, you just don't have that 1 second. The major problem of Fajin is it requires "compression time". After a full compression and when you try to release it, your opponent may not be there any more.





You will never see any boxer who takes 1 second to "compress" his cross or hook. His "compression" is hidden in his set up "jab". So the proper training for Fajin is to use "combo" and not to use single punch.

[wayne hansen]

This is a basic part of tai chi that most outside don't understand
It is instantaneous and built into the circle
To receive is to cast
To cast is to receive
A boxer also does the same thing you just don't see it
I don't know why people who are not deep inside tai chi and believe other arts to be superior bother to speak about it
It's a bit like politicians talking over climate science to push their political agenda

[MaartenSFS]

John, that's not how I Fajin. I already said that I don't need that big set-up.

I've shown videos of good Fajin on here. It is a critical part of training. It's not just "oh I'll Fajin here or there". It's the way power for every strike is generated! I simply cannot fathom why you (all) still don't get it. Then you post videos that are clearly slow and impractical (or fantasy). It seems like all of you are really good at the wrestling aspects of IMA, but clearly have never seen or can even comprehend the striking aspect, hence adding kickboxing in.

A boxing punch is very different from a Fajin punch. I train with boxers here, so I know! They know! It's totally different! Boxing is great too, though, or I wouldn't be intrested in training with them.

[johnwang]

John, that's not how I Fajin. I already said that I don't need that big set-up.

Without the big set-up, how do you know that's the "maximum" power that you can generate? I'm talking about 100% power and not 70% or 80% power. Those 3 most famous TCMA Fajin systems all require "set-up".

1. Baji



2. Chen Taiji



3. XYLH.

[johnwang]

The more that you compress, the more that you can release. I have always believed that WC punch is not powerful enough because the lacking of

- body rotation,
- coordinate forward stepping with punch,
- non-striking hand pulling back, and
- punching arm twisting.

No matter how much power that you can generate in your WC punch, it will not be your "maximum" power punch.

[C.J.W.]

The more that you compress, the more that you can release. I have always believed that WC punch is not powerful enough because the lacking of

- body rotation,
- coordinate forward stepping with punch,
- non-striking hand pulling back, and
- punching arm twisting.

No matter how much power that you can generate in your WC punch, it will not be your "maximum" power punch.

I agree that the WC approach may not produce the maximum punching power a person can generate, but to determine it's true effectiveness, we should consider how this particular way of punching is applied and how it is incorporated into WC fighting as a whole.

WC has a different mechanism for generating power compared to northern styles that utilize large extended movements. The focus is on the elbows, which allows one to move the arms and make adjustments more quickly. And this is an area that WC excels in. So what it lacks in power, it makes up for in speed and accuracy.

[johnwang]

So what it lacks in power, it makes up for in speed and accuracy.

That's exactly why I try to use WC punch as my example. Fajin is over rated because in fighting, everything is "power vs. speed trade off". Also a 50 lb punch on the back of the head can cause more damage than a 100 lb punch on the chest. In other words, how to manage to land your 50 lb punch on the back of your opponent's head is also important.

[dspyrido]

Every time when we talk about Fajin, I always like to put up these 2 clips. You can see that it takes about 1 second for both Fajin masters to "compress" before they can "release". In real fighting, you just don't have that 1 second. The major problem of Fajin is it requires "compression time". After a full compression and when you try to release it, your opponent may not be there any more.

But you know the compression time is usually supposed to be a setup move. So compress and draw in and fajin away. But that looks pretty empty when there's no one there. So when fajin is shown solo I kind of get bored and move on. Many forms players can make something look like it's got power but it hasn't.

Fajin demo's get a little more interesting when they hit something heavy. Sometimes though it can be hammed up so again videos can fall short. It's also hard to tell if there is a shocking power to a move as bag usually don't move much.

The best thing is to feel someone apply power. Preferably done with little movement or setup.

[johnwang]

But you know the compression time is usually supposed to be a setup move.

So the compression of Fajin is the "entering strategy". We should talk about how to hide compression in entering strategy. This remind me a TCMA move "black tiger steals the heart" that you use a fake cross to set up a powerful jab.

In Lien Bu Quan, there is a move that

- you use right palm to twist your body to your left and fake strike on your opponent's face,
- you then twist your body to your right and use your left palm to hit on his kidney area.

Both use twisting your body in one direction followed by twisting your body to the opposite direction.

[MaartenSFS]

That's a good point, actually. The set-up is no more complicated than setting up a right uppercut with a jab or another combination. In these videos they are mostly doing Fajin with the rear hand. The rear hand usually requires some sort of set-up, which is plenty of time to compress. I never need as much compression as those clips, though. In Yanshou Hongchui we don't see the opponent. CXW isn't just magically waving his arms. He would be manoeuvring into position. I don't use a lot of techniques like that, though; at most a one-two combination. In other internal arts we don't see as much manoeuvring as in TJQ.

[everything]

TJQ has a back and forth (first lead into emptiness, then counter) kind of approach (I'm sure 100 people are going to say that's wrong )

Since they have stereotypically different movement approaches (circular, more straighforward), I'd be interested to hear how you do the hidden compress/release in BGZ or XYQ if anyone could comment.

Feinting one way that sets up going/"releasing" the other way is common across sports.

[johnwang]

Feinting one way that sets up going/"releasing" the other way is common across sports.

Some styles such as preying mantis, WC, ... that emphasize too much on speed just don't emphasize this principle enough. As long as you can understand this "simple" principle, you can apply it to almost any TCMA styles.

For example,

1. Taiji brush knee - Your opponent right punch at your face. You use left arm to block it, pull his arm in. This will give you a body rotation to your right. You then release it, rotate your body to your left, guide his right arm down and to your left. You then palm strike on his face.
2. Taiji cloud hand - You use left hand control your opponent's left arm wrist. You use right arm to push his right shoulder to your right. This will give you a body rotation to your right. When you feel resistance, you rotate your body to your left, pull his right arm downward and inner sickle his right leg up.
3. You use left hand to push on your opponent's right elbow joint. This will give you a body rotation to your right. You then rotate your body to your left and hay-maker your right arm on the back of your opponent's head.
4. You use right hay-maker to hit on your opponent's head. This will give you a body rotation to your left. When your opponent dodges his head under your arm, you then rotate your body to your right and right arm "reverse head lock' his dodging head.
5. You left hand grab on your opponent's left wrist, right palm chop on his neck. This will give you a body rotation to your left. When he bends down his head to dodge your palm strike, you rotate your body to your right and arm strike on his face.
6. You use right arm to crack your opponent's left arm and force his body to move to your left. This will give you a body rotation to your left. When you feel resistance, you rotate your body to your right and use your left hand to push on his neck with left leg to cut on his left leg.
7. You use left leg to sweep your opponent's right leg. This will give you a body rotation to your right. When he lifts up his leg to escape it, you pull your sweeping leg back, rotate your body to your left and apply head lock on his head.
8. ...

This "set-up (entering strategy)" can be used in both the striking art and the throwing art. You can clearly feel the "compress" and "release". It's fun to train. In training, you may compress as much as you want to. In fighting, you may only have enough time to compress 60%.