Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby amor on Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:23 am

Trick wrote:
amor wrote:
Wu Tunan's taichi is the real deal. One of the few styles and learners of this particular form of taichi, that ive come across, who know how to use it devastatingly well imo

Are there records of this Wu Tunan using his Taiji in a devastating way ?


I'm talking modern day you's and me's not Wu Tunan himself. In the context of this thread since nobody can agree on who deserves the recognition for 'inventing' taichi. So perhaps why the Wu Tunan stylists I know are quite effective at their style of taichi is because the style is not as common as yang and chen so is less polluted with people mashing together aspects from other styles into 'their' version of yang and chen and then calling it yang taichi or chen taichi.
Last edited by amor on Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby robert on Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:02 pm

Niall Keane wrote:It's well known and even stated by his
senior students that Chen fake changed his form and introduced pao chui elements to it.

Yes, he took Laojia and modified it and the result is called Xinjia - so there is old frame and new frame. There are a number of forms in Chen taijiquan. Laojia has Yilu and Erlu and Erlu is also called Pao chui. In Chen Changxing's time another form was created called called Xiaojia, small frame. And Chen Fake added Xinjia Yilu and Erlu.

Zhu Tian Cai -
Within the Chenjiagou family of routines, although there is a differentiation of Lao Jia, Xin Jia and Xiao Jia, essentially, their operation and application stem from the same Taijiquan principles. Through all these years, from my time of training till now, the method of training has not been changed. We will always start with Lao Jia Yi Lu, perfecting each posture towards the requirement, correcting each move, understanding when to shift the center of gravity from one foot to another (虚实分明). As one becomes familiar with the form and performs it correctly, the moves become rounder and wider, in tune with your own rhythm. Once you internalize the Taijiquan principles, and it becomes second nature to you (不丢不顶), you begin to experiment with the form itself, that is, your form becomes formless (有规距而脱规). When your internal and external are in harmony (内外合一), you will be able to express an internal principle into an external movement or a physical application at will (灵活运用,随其自然). In Xiao Jia, the circles are smaller, faster, gentler but also strong. Its focus is more on mind intent to control the flow of Qi and its objective is to try and complete the routine as one continuous flow. In Xin Jia, the emphasis on the wrist and the hand as explained above. Despite their characteristic differences, all three categories adhere faithfully to the basic rules of peng,lu ji,an,cai,lie,zhou,kao,zhan,lian,tie,sui,rou,huo,song,yuan. (Jas’ note: these are the fundamental, techniques which form the primary core from which either one or a combination of techniques is worked into the Taijiquan routine – this would take me into another long digression here!) The waist is the primary, central axis in Lao Jia, Xin Jia and Xiao Jia and is the base from which all movement begins (以腰为主宰). When practicing any routine within these three categories of Lao Jia, Xin Jia and Xiao Jia, the primary training principles still hold. That is, using your waist as the turning axis, your body should be interconnected and aligned such that when one part of the body changes every part of the body changes in tandem along with it (一动无有不动,一静无有不静), using your correct posture to facilitate the generation of Qi, and then letting your Qi trigger your movements, ensuring that your body line of both your upper body and lower body is not broken, and striving to complete the routine in one single, continuous flow without breaking your rhythm or your qi.

The secret to Chenjiagou Taijiquan lies in its particular spiral silk reeling force which is unique in the martial arts world. Hence, be it Xiao Jia, Xin Jia, or Lao Jia, they all possess this characteristic which differentiates them from other styles.


Chen Xiaoxing Laojia Yilu


Chen Xiaoxing Xinjia Yilu
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:17 pm

robert wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:My own teacher was there in 1984 and changxings tombstone was thrown up against a fence and his name basically errased from the record.

I don't know about 1984, but I was in Chenjiagou in 2006 and the cemetary was in a state of disrepair. I was told it was being repaired. I was back last year and now the ancestral halls, cemetary, and museum are all contained in a nice complex and the cemetary is restored.

Yes I was thinking about that statement too. I was in China(Beijing) in the late 80's, almost all of Beijing was as a very large village, and I heard that the rural areas was very very poor. I moved to China in 2005 and have been around some and still many rural/village areas are very poor, so can imagine how it must have been in 1984, who could care about tomb stones when struggling each day to put food on the table, I would think those villagers did not care to much about anything Taiji in 1984. Those who did some TJQ there probably could not put in as much time and effort on practice and related Taiji stuff as for example Niall' teacher could do, there was more important things to care about
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:28 pm

amor wrote:
Trick wrote:
amor wrote:
Wu Tunan's taichi is the real deal. One of the few styles and learners of this particular form of taichi, that ive come across, who know how to use it devastatingly well imo

Are there records of this Wu Tunan using his Taiji in a devastating way ?


I'm talking modern day you's and me's not Wu Tunan himself. In the context of this thread since nobody can agree on who deserves the recognition for 'inventing' taichi. So perhaps why the Wu Tunan stylists I know are quite effective at their style of taichi is because the style is not as common as yang and chen so is less polluted with people mashing together aspects from other styles into 'their' version of yang and chen and then calling it yang taichi or chen taichi.

Yes, but are there records of Wu Tunan being more than a boxecise guy as I' am (doing just forms an some Tuishou) Cause the statement was 'Wu Tunan's taichi is the real deal'
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:36 pm

Niall Keane wrote:It's

So either yang passed on exactly what he learned in Chen village off Chen changxing which was nei jia wih no connection to the famiIy pao chui

Why couldn't the 'family pao chui' be considered to be 'nei jia'' ?
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Ozguorui on Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:51 am

Ha ha....can't resist this one....

While we are quoting, consider a real, known proven master - Chen Panling, in his Tai Chi Chuan Textbook:

"I learned tai chi chuan from all the hsien shengs: Wu Chien-chuan, Yang Shao-hou, Chi Tzu-hsiu, and Hsu Yu-sheng. From 1927 to 1928, I also went to the village of Chen Chia Kou, Wu Hsien county, Henan Province to research Chen's tai chi chuan".

Ok,...with me so far, a real, verifiable student of Yang Shaohou and Wu Jianquan - went to Chenjiagou in 1927 to 1928 (well before 1984, which as others have noted was a lot closer to the chaos of the Cultural Revolution than we are today......) to check it out for himself.....lots of stuff there, read it for yourself, but his key conclusions...

"As for Yang style, which is most popular now, there is no doubt that Yang Lu-Chan learned tai chi from Chen Chang-hsing at Chen Chia Kou"

"Some people claim that Chiang Fa taught tai chi chuan to Chen Chang-hsing.......this legend cannot be true"

"you can be sure that modern tai chi chuan originated in Chen Chia Kou."
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby amor on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:54 am

Trick wrote:Yes, but are there records of Wu Tunan being more than a boxecise guy as I' am (doing just forms an some Tuishou) Cause the statement was 'Wu Tunan's taichi is the real deal'


I wouldn't know about any other boxercise he may have done, all I know of is a few modern day northern wu stylists who are decent imo, not that I would consider myself judge of who is good or not. But since they could demonstrate putting some aspects of their learning to combat use then all credit to their teacher and Wu Tunan, the originator of their style, no?
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:25 am

amor wrote:
Trick wrote:Yes, but are there records of Wu Tunan being more than a boxecise guy as I' am (doing just forms an some Tuishou) Cause the statement was 'Wu Tunan's taichi is the real deal'


I wouldn't know about any other boxercise he may have done, all I know of is a few modern day northern wu stylists who are decent imo, not that I would consider myself judge of who is good or not. But since they could demonstrate putting some aspects of their learning to combat use then all credit to their teacher and Wu Tunan, the originator of their style, no?


Was Wu Tunan the originator of Wu-family TJQ ? Ok I'm sorry I now this is a Chen style tread, but I have to ask. In 2006 I met and learned for an very very short time from who I think must have been the most senior teacher of northern Wu-style Taiji, he had not only studied Wutaiji but also some XYQ Tongbeiquan and even a little Yiquan, probably also some Shaolin stuff too if I remember right..anyway that's what I was told....oh, while I'm writing I remember we did some Xingyi'ish and Tongbei'ish excecises as for warm ups.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby robert on Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:16 am

Trick wrote:Yes I was thinking about that statement too. I was in China(Beijing) in the late 80's, almost all of Beijing was as a very large village, and I heard that the rural areas was very very poor. I moved to China in 2005 and have been around some and still many rural/village areas are very poor, so can imagine how it must have been in 1984, who could care about tomb stones when struggling each day to put food on the table, I would think those villagers did not care to much about anything Taiji in 1984. Those who did some TJQ there probably could not put in as much time and effort on practice and related Taiji stuff as for example Niall' teacher could do, there was more important things to care about

Yes, when I was there in 2006 it looked dirt poor, all the streets were dirt and we stayed at a hotel in Wen county. Now it's really built up, the streets are not only paved, but the main streets are stone pavers. We stayed at Chen Xiaoxing's guest house which is a 6 or 7 story building with a/c, indoor plumping, and cable tv. There's a hotel in the village and another is under construction. They have the new museum and there is a stadium.

Stone pavers in the street (the side of Chen Xiaoxing's school on the left)
Image

Taijiquan Museum
Image

Cemetary Restored - I think this is Chen Bu's Grave
Image

New Buildings and Stadium in the distance to the right
Image
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:40 am

History is good for tourism.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:37 pm

Wu tu nan is not the originator of the Wu family and not related
He is considered to be the person who practiced the longest
Him and his whife were western and traditional doctors
He started with Wu when he was 8 and Wu took him to learn from yang ban Hou when he was 12
There is conjecture as to how old he was when he died
Some say 113 others 108 Ma claimed they were the same age 98
But no matter the age he trained tai chi close on 100 years
Having had a teacher who trained 70 years I can only imagine what those extra 30 might have brought
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:19 pm

First off, for sure my intention is merely to set the cat among the pigeons....

my own belief is that no origin theory can be proved due to lack of evidence, but that certainly some can be disproved. The Chen origin theory is one such that can certainly have elements disproved and the rest made uncertain, with no more credence than the Chang San Feng Origin Theory. Though for this post I will be focusing on the Chen Origin myth..

Now, I do believe that Chen Style TaI Chi Chuan is nei jia chuan and is tai chi chuan (albeit with additional techniques from their family pao chui Shaolin system.)

We can call accept that Yang Lu Chan is the “Royce Gracie” figure-head of Tai Chi Chuan. It was his achievements in “challenges” (Lei Tai, full-contact it is assumed and not tiddlywinks) that earned him the name “the invincible”. It was a court scholar Ong Tong who first coined the name “Tai Chi Chuan” after witnessing one of Yang's bouts:


“Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes.”

Now, personally, I have a lot of respect for where the Chen's are NOW... focusing on stand up wrestling (tuishou) and beginning to step into the world of sanda and mixed sanda-muay thai rules...
The lads themselves seem grounded in reality and I'm sure I could enjoy a few yellow wines in their company, where as with the majority of TODAY'S Yang style practitioners I'd probably have to grit my teeth. In particular the Family style seems allergic to combat sport involvement, and as those of us who have entered such realise, the very basics of martial arts, timing, angle and range can only be “internalised” through such competitive practice (full contact with minimal restrictions), and without such basics all the “higher skills” in the world become divorced from the understanding of reality and so delusional. There is no escaping this, and the likes of Yang Lu Chan and Yang Ban hou knew this very well.

So.. back to the Chen's...

The real question is did Chen Chang-xing learn Tai Chi Chuan from another member of the Chen clan or from Jiang Fa? (there is enough evidence of others returning to Chen Village to support the idea that it was the Nei Jia Chuan Yang practised and taught – Wu Yu-xiang visiting Chen Qing-ping in Zhao Bao, Wang Lan Ting who trained with Chen Keng-yun, son of Chen Chang-xing and others)

Many Chen stylists will cite the afore-mentioned Wu Yu-xiang learning from Chen Qing-ping and the fact that he learned from Chen You-ben as proof of their origin theory, but lets just think about that... He could well have learned the family style pao chui off You-ben and subsequently learned Tai Chi Chuan off Chen Chang-xing or even Jiang Fa. Yang Lu Chan and he (Qing-ping” were of the same generation, perhaps good sparring partners? )It would explain why Yang sent his student Wu to visit Qing-ping and not Chen Chang-xing or his son Keng-yun who trained Wang Lan-ting prior to Wang learning off Yang...

Why didn't Wu Yu-xiang learn from the “source”? And instead learn or perhaps “exchange” with Qing-ping?

Let us now look at Jiang Fa and Wang Zong-yue...

The Chen historians Chen Xin and Gu Liu-xin acknowledge the existence of Jiang Fa but have him learning from Chen Wang-ting.

Chen Wang-ting is claimed by the Chen's to have handed down five routines of Tai Ch Chuan after the fall of the Ming dynasty around 1650. However in a report dated 9th June 1980 in the third edition of the “Physical Education Newspaper”, Gu Liu-xin said that ad formerly believed that Chen Wang-ting from the Che village, who in 1640 had led rural militia to support the local magistrate in quelling an uprising, and the Chen Wang-ting from South Manchuria, who had been an imperial censor and received rewards from the Emperor were one and the same, when in fact the “Ting” characters in the two names were different.
He was unable to correct this mistake until after the fall of the “Gang of Four”. Members of the Chen clan served with the Red Army and their village was used as a base during the revolution. Recall the hatred towards tradition held by the Communist party, and their rejection of the Chang San-feng origin becomes clear.

Jiang Fa according to most Yang lineages is supposed to be the teacher of Chen Chang-xing (1771-1853). Jiang was taught by Wang Zong-yue and this is the northern Tai Chi School. Wang Zong (minus yue) is supposed to have handed down the southern branch of the Tai Chi Chuan school through Chang Song-xi (the lad famous for throwing the Shaolin monk through the first -second if you're American- floor window of a tavern... made famous in the appropriation of the legend in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon)

However if we accept the Chen story that Jiang Fa was a contemporary of the tenth generation of the Chen family, this would make him a young man in 1650, about 20 years before the death of Wang Zheng-nan. Yet Wang was the great grand-student of Wang Zong? Here the error of mixing Wang Zong and Wang Zong-yue is highlighted.

Wang Zong-yue is credited with writing the Yin-Fu Spear Chronicle, and according to the preface he lived in Lou Yang in 1791, and in 1795 was in Kaifeng working as a teacher and scholar. These are both in Henan Provence and near the Chen village.

The Chens have Jiang Fa learning from Chen Wang-ting (1650) But Yang systems have him teaching Chen Chang-xiang (1771-1853) so a disparity of approx 150 years.

The Chens have however Wang Zong-yue as a contemporary of their 13th generation, i.e. Chen Bing-wang who taught the pao chui method to Chen Chang-xing, and so Wang could have taught Jiang Fa and Chen Chang-xing.
Keep in mind that the Chen's accept that the “outsider” Wang Zong-yue wrote the classics!!! And many books on Chen Tai Chi Chuan include them.

The Yang derived inside the door tale of Jiang Fa is thus:

Jiang arrives at Chen Village to witness Chen Chang-xing coaching, and duly laughs at their efforts. Chen sees this and Jiang turns to leave. Chen chases after him and as he is about to seize him, Jiang throws him hard with little effort. Chen immediately recognises the superiority of his skill and kneels to plead to become Jiang's student. Jiang accepts Chen.
Chen Chang-xing is forthwith barred from teaching the Village Style and viewed as a disgrace for baishi'ing to an outsider.

My Sifu had been taken around the village in October 1995 by Chen Zao-sen, and found that all the old tombstones had been removed from the cemetery and lay on the ground outside the Pao Chui training hall. New tombstones had been erected “praising the Chen Family ancestors and their contribution to Tai chi Chuan”. No grave stone existed for Chen Chang-xing, he was not honoured in any of the rooms of the training hall apart from his name on a new black tablet in the hall giving their Chen Family martial arts lineage. The only sign of him was in a museum in the house where he taught Yang Lu Chan... a museum created with Taiwanese money!!!


Finally we cannot ignore the writings of Wu Tu-nan. We cannot hold them as gospel either given his dishonesty about his age etc.. but we should hear him out...

Wu stated that the forms “now” being practised in the Chen village were “revised” by Chen Fake. Recall that all the Yang derived forms are almost identical. And follow the written and published song by Li I Yu (late 1800's) .. even today. So either all these branched changed simultaneously prior to Li I Yu's time (meaning after the Wu Yu-xiang / Yang / Wu split (the world is mad) or the Chen;s changed their form.
We cannot forget either the Buddhist / Shaolin referenced techniques in Chen styles, utterly absent in other styles.

Wu Tu-nan states that he was told by Chen Xin (the first writer of Chen style and village teacher) that every year, after the harvest,clan members would gather in the village yard to practice Shaolin boxing. (the temple is quite near). He said that one autumn Chen Chang-xing was leading his sons, nephews and disciples through their training in the yard when a watching stranger gave out a laugh. The stranger turned to leave, but Chen Chang-xing ran after him and grabbed him by his shoulder, only to be thrown to the ground. Chen got up and begged to be accepted as a pupil.
The stranger was Jiang Fa, who ran a bean-curd business in Xian and who was passing through on his way to visit his mother in Henan province. They arranged to meet again in three years time, and then Chen went though Bai Shi with Jiang, prior to learning Tai Chi Chuan.

Wu met another villager, Du Yu-wen, who confirmed that Chen Tai Chi Chuan had come from Jiang Fa from Kaifeng in Henan province (in 1795 Wang Zong-yue was supposed to be in Kaifeng!!!) Wu stated that the names of the styles and the sequence Du were the same as those taught by Yang Lu-chan.

Furthermore there is evidence via Tang Hao that Chen Xin in the 1930's was trying to suppress rumours amongst Chen Villagers that Jiang Fa taught Chen Chang-xing.

So... if Jiang learned from Wang Zong-yue, the Chen dates are wrong. However if he did, it suggests that he learned before 1795 when Wang published the Yin Fu Spear Treatise, and that Jiang passed the art to Chen Chang-xing... This solution conforms with the dates we have for Wang Zong-yue and Chen Chang-xing, and supports the oral tradition of the Yang lineage.
Last edited by Niall Keane on Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:10 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Wu tu nan is not the originator of the Wu family and not related
He is considered to be the person who practiced the longest
Him and his whife were western and traditional doctors
He started with Wu when he was 8 and Wu took him to learn from yang ban Hou when he was 12
There is conjecture as to how old he was when he died
Some say 113 others 108 Ma claimed they were the same age 98
But no matter the age he trained tai chi close on 100 years
Having had a teacher who trained 70 years I can only imagine what those extra 30 might have brought
. Did not know too much about Wu Tunan except that he had knowledge of Wu-Taiji and was not related to the originator of that version of Taijiquan 8-) so I looked up on the net and found this http://wutunantaijigong.com/wutunan.htm
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:14 pm

robert wrote:
Trick wrote:Yes I was thinking about that statement too. I was in China(Beijing) in the late 80's, almost all of Beijing was as a very large village, and I heard that the rural areas was very very poor. I moved to China in 2005 and have been around some and still many rural/village areas are very poor, so can imagine how it must have been in 1984, who could care about tomb stones when struggling each day to put food on the table, I would think those villagers did not care to much about anything Taiji in 1984. Those who did some TJQ there probably could not put in as much time and effort on practice and related Taiji stuff as for example Niall' teacher could do, there was more important things to care about

Yes, when I was there in 2006 it looked dirt poor, all the streets were dirt and we stayed at a hotel in Wen county. Now it's really built up, the streets are not only paved, but the main streets are stone pavers. We stayed at Chen Xiaoxing's guest house which is a 6 or 7 story building with a/c, indoor plumping, and cable tv. There's a hotel in the village and another is under construction. They have the new museum and there is a stadium.

Stone pavers in the street (the side of Chen Xiaoxing's school on the left)
Image

Taijiquan Museum
Image

Cemetary Restored - I think this is Chen Bu's Grave
Image

New Buildings and Stadium in the distance to the right
Image
. Looks good. Where I live now is not too far away so I might actually go there some day
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:42 pm

Niall Keane wrote:
We can call accept that Yang Lu Chan is the “Royce Gracie” figure-head of Tai Chi Chuan. It was his achievements in “challenges” (Lei Tai, full-contact it is assumed and not tiddlywinks) that earned him the name “the invincible”. It was a court scholar Ong Tong who first coined the name “Tai Chi Chuan” after witnessing one of Yang's bouts:


“Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes

.

Now I have learned and still practice YTJQ in the linages of Fu Zhongwen and Li Yaxuan and enjoy the practice very much, so I'm not to diss YTJQ at all. But what/where are the solid records of Yang Luchan's many challenges? What other historically well known fighters/warriors did he defeat? I'm thinking about for example such a historical famous fighter/duellist as Miamoto Musashi where the records seem legit that he duelled against other famous warriors, but that might be that they are better at keeping records in Japan. But the record how Yang Luchan's gong fu got its name seem to be well known to some point, in another post here it was stated the Taijiquan name came about after a scholar(probably well versed in poetry) witnessed an "demonstration" done by Yang Luchan- not an actually fight?
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