Internal and Clinch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:50 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
johnwang wrote:Image

Many things can happen here. A "bear hug" and "under hook" can be transferred back and forth. When your opponent applies "bear hug" on you, if you

1. keep your body straight, his left leg can hook your right leg from outside.
2. sink down, he can pull down your shoulder and help you to go down even more.
3. move your hip back, he can turn in with a hip throw.
4. ...


Am I missing something? The person being grabbed has both of his hands free, so why not just snap his neck, or gouge out his eyes, or clap his eardrums?


Hi Ron, Yes, from that position, he is only 1 impulse away from collapsing his opponents spine. If you even lift your arms to try to get to his eyes, it takes too long.
He will launch forward or twist at the same time as he is pulling-in. so unless your a contortionist, I would recommend keeping them from getting that lock right from
the start. Not that it's inescapable, it is. Greco-Roman wresting was part of our training when I did MMA. It's good stuff.
Last edited by willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
willie

 

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:59 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
Good looking fajin Willie.



Thanks :)
willie

 

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby marvin8 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:04 pm

johnwang wrote:Image

Many things can happen here. A "bear hug" and "under hook" can be transferred back and forth. When your opponent applies "bear hug" on you, if you

1. keep your body straight, his left leg can hook your right leg from outside.
2. sink down, he can pull down your shoulder and help you to go down even more.
3. move your hip back, he can turn in with a hip throw.
4. ...

JiuJitsuMag
Published on Dec 10, 2014

In this video Master Sauer demonstrates how to not only defend and escape a front bear hug where an opponent/attacker has double underhooks, but immediately go on the offense and fight back. This move is applicable for both MMA and self-defense purposes. Master Sauer is being assisted by Luis Heredia of Maui Jiu-Jitsu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAKD4RkRmdA
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:08 pm

Bao wrote:
willie wrote: This is because he plans on bending your spine backwards and pulling you in. It is especially important to make sure that your spine remains convex in this situation. So standing straight up is not a good idea, even if you're sinking down.


As I said, you must follow his movement when he gets in, adapt to his momentum. You must adapt to an opponent's movements already from distance. If you just stand and let him go into that position your timing is way off. If he reach for you that way, just use his forward momentum and take him to the ground. I can't see how anyone with a bit fighting skill could get into that kind of static position where the clincher has an advantage. If you are not moving and adapting to his distance and angle from distance, then you sincerely don't know how to fight.


Wow, do i detect hostility, LOL!

To be clear, i said what I said to you, because of what you previously wrote.
If someone just stand like this and try to hug you, why not let him?

Now you are saying something completely different.
You must adapt to an opponent's movements already from distance. If you just stand and let him go into that position your timing is way off

So what your saying is...
then you sincerely don't know how to fight.

Are you sure?
willie

 

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby robert on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:09 pm

I posted this in another thread, but it's appropriate here as well. Here are a couple guys fighting with taiji and they get in a clinch a couple of times. If they're both double weighted the ref breaks it up - that implies they can't get out of the clinch using taiji skills. The ref breaks them up a number of times. The ref seems pretty good. Anyway, if you fight you better expect to get in a clinch and it's harder to get out of if you have an opponent ;) It starts around 2:50 ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk-OITQqHP8

If you counter a clinch, it's not a clinch - it becomes a throw or whatever your counter is.
Last edited by robert on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:16 pm

willie wrote:Wow, do i detect hostility, LOL!


You are too sensitive. No hostility. None. My "you"s were all a general "you". Nothing meant towards you personally, I was only speaking in a general, broad sense.

BTW, I enjoyed your vid. Looks good. 8-)

marvin8 wrote:In this video Master Sauer demonstrates how to not only defend and escape a front bear hug where an opponent/attacker has double underhooks, but immediately go on the offense and fight back. This move is applicable for both MMA and self-defense purposes. Master Sauer is being assisted by Luis Heredia of Maui Jiu-Jitsu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAKD4RkRmdA


Master? Says who?

I wouldn't advice this solution. If you catch his movement before he goes in and you step back when he still moves forward before he is in clinch position the knee stuff might work. But if he is already in, he will probably lean his weight on you so it will be hard to step back without losing balance. Even if you maintain your own balance, he will still stick on you and might follow you making it hard to get that distance where you can jump up with a knee at him.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:18 pm

robert wrote: It starts around 2:50 ...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk-OITQqHP8

If you counter a clinch, it's not a clinch - it becomes a throw or whatever your counter is.


Those fights are just for show and made up. As real as American wrestling.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:20 pm

marvin8 wrote:

His counters assume that his opponent doesn't know how to switch from "bear hug" into "under hook". A good "under hook" can raise your arm higher than you want to. It can completely disable your arm mobility.

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:45 pm

Bao wrote:Why try to avoid it? Well, it's obviously better to follow and adjust to his movement when he goes in for a clinch than let him go there and do nothing.

you can

1. Avoid a clinch.
2. Take advantage on a clinch.

IMO, 2 > 1.

When your opponent has "bear hug" on you, you can also have a "head lock" on him. Who can bend who's spine depending on individual skill/ability.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:11 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Why try to avoid it? Well, it's obviously better to follow and adjust to his movement when he goes in for a clinch than let him go there and do nothing.

you can

1. Avoid a clinch.
2. Take advantage on a clinch.

IMO, 2 > 1.

When your opponent has "bear hug" on you, you can also have a "head lock" on him. Who can bend who's spine depending on individual skill/ability.


I wouldn't say either. I would say:
3 = Take advantage on an attempt to a clinch.

It's not about avoiding, but taking advantage of what he is trying to do before he has completed what he intended to do. If you just avoid it, he tries again or you let him do something else. You don't want a chasing game and you don't want to put yourself in a position where someone has a greater advantage.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:59 pm

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:2. Take advantage on a clinch.

I wouldn't say either. I would say:
3 = Take advantage on an attempt to a clinch.

Your 3 and my 2 are the same.

When a punch land on your face, everything is too later. When a bear hug is closed, it may also be too late if your opponent has a pair of strong arms. Through Chinese history, someone was killed by "bear hug" before.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby marvin8 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:14 pm

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In this video Master Sauer demonstrates how to not only defend and escape a front bear hug where an opponent/attacker has double underhooks, but immediately go on the offense and fight back. This move is applicable for both MMA and self-defense purposes. Master Sauer is being assisted by Luis Heredia of Maui Jiu-Jitsu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAKD4RkRmdA


Master? Says who?

I wouldn't advice this solution. If you catch his movement before he goes in and you step back when he still moves forward before he is in clinch position the knee stuff might work. But if he is already in, he will probably lean his weight on you so it will be hard to step back without losing balance. Even if you maintain your own balance, he will still stick on you and might follow you making it hard to get that distance where you can jump up with a knee at him.

But, the question is after you are in the bear hug, not "before:"
johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Just take a step back before he gets into the clinch position in the OP pic and this hook problem will never happen. Then you can freely Palm smack his ears as he tries to reach for you.

This will belong to "How to avoid clinch".

Here they get their own underhook and bear hug. Not saying it's easy.

predadorbjj
Published on Mar 22, 2013

Front bear hug defense (free arms):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQsmMvbKOWs

Gracie NEPA
Published on Sep 11, 2014

A larger more aggressive opponent has gripped you up in a bear hug with your arms free. The immediate danger of being lifted and slammed or folded in half and crushed to the ground must be dealt with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMa1YbtyX0I
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:37 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Front bear hug defense (free arms):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQsmMvbKOWs

Gracie NEPA
Published on Sep 11, 2014

A larger more aggressive opponent has gripped you up in a bear hug with your arms free. The immediate danger of being lifted and slammed or folded in half and crushed to the ground must be dealt with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMa1YbtyX0I


Yup that's it, It's what I said. Create a frame to keep them out and lower your stance.
By the way, Just because I haven't had that tried on me in a long time. I had someone try it.
It didn't do shit, wasn't even dangerous for me at all. I don't really know if it's all the internal work that I've done
or if it's from doing squats and dead lift. kind-of funny how things have changed. I remember that being a very effective move
when I was doing MMA. Now nothing, Generic...
Last edited by willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
willie

 

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:48 pm

Bao wrote:
willie wrote:Wow, do i detect hostility, LOL!


You are too sensitive. No hostility. None. My "you"s were all a general "you". Nothing meant towards you personally, I was only speaking in a general, broad sense.

BTW, I enjoyed your vid. Looks good. 8-)


Actully Bao, I don't even care any more.
You ever hear the expression, "those guys don't even care". That is what has happened, quite remarkable...
I started trying to make up for lost time by training Laojia 15 - 20 times daily. Something strange happened and
I became very happy and laughed and laughed. I can't explain that, except Buddha perhaps.
I don't know but my teacher has it too, just seems to laugh a lot.

I'm currently doing the same thing with Xinjia.
Last edited by willie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
willie

 

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:10 pm

marvin8 wrote:But, the question is after you are in the bear hug, not "before:"

The wrestling art contradicts to itself big time. My teacher used to say,

- If you can't get a bear hug on your opponent, you are not a good wrestler.
- If your opponent can get a bear hug on you, you are also not a good wrestler.

This contradiction does make sense because technique is 50% and ability is another 50%.

I have a new student. In last week class, I taught him how to break a clinch. He is a very strong guy. I asked him to resist as hard as he could. I could then break his clinch 3 times in a row. I then asked him to break my clinch (the same clinch). He tried 3 times and failed in all 3 tries.

One Iranian wrestler ambushed me from behind with a bear hug. He squeezed his bear hug on me so hard that broke his own ribs.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: twocircles13 and 35 guests