tiger/snake style taichi?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby amor on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:19 pm

Does anyone know what is the difference between tiger and snake style taichi? Do these specific styles emulate the animals they are named after and if so, how?
At this point I would say chen style is probably the best representation of a snake due to all the coiling and twisting aspects but a tiger? What I'm really asking is do these specific styles really represent the animals named after or are they just named after said animals in better hopes of drawing people to that style, as in clever marketing strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9CAr7ytKEM

I think we know what style is better if they are for real anyway :D
Last edited by amor on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:34 pm

The closest to this that I'm aware of is a somewhat limited and lightly referenced practice of referring to the frames as such. Tiger being more of the medium frame and snake being low
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby everything on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:42 pm

lol I love cat v snake videos
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby charles on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:45 pm

Chinese martial arts have a long history of emulating animal movements. There are tiger styles and snake styles, but no traditional Taijiquan style that is either or particularly attempts to emulate either.

Of course, one origin-story is that Taijiquan was created by Chan San Feng after observing a snake and crane fight. Whether or not Taijiquan contains, in any significant way, snake or crane movements is open to debate.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:18 pm

Marketing ploy
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby Trick on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:43 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Marketing ploy

Probably emerged with YLC 8-)
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:08 am

On YouTube you see a guy that promotes his snake form/style. It was the teacher of this guy who invented this dichotomy of tiger/snake. There were no such terminology used before that.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby Daniel-san on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:34 am

Previous discussion:

viewtopic.php?t=16379
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby Subitai on Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:50 am

Hung Gar...like some other 5 animal styles has both of those.

What do you want to hear...that you literally become an animal? Jokes. Of course not.

Allot of info out there about people toughening their hands with special training gongs in order to be able to use these styles. Well that's obvious that you need to have strong fingers and powerful grip. Everyone does.

But more importantly for me is that a Tiger is not like an African lion per say. A tiger is from a different environment...it is known to be primarily an ambush artist and also an opportunist. So in my opinion, it's not about being super strong and overpowering your opponent. (You can choose to do it that way if you wish...but I think it's a waste) You don't attack with Tiger...you set it up with basics and when the opportunity is good...then you "Grab (and or claw) to control them".

For example in our style... "Leading the horse..." doesn't sound like a tiger method, but really it is.

In this video I demonstrate "leading the horse..." at around (1:50sec)


Again, I want to stress that tiger is not only about attacking with strong slashing claws ( that's the movies) it's about strategy and (grabbing) control...be that YOU Control with a grab or you can escape with the correct energy as well. (In other words if you are good at grabbing you should also know how to counter it)

As for snake, it uses timing and "directness". ( Literally strike out directly with powerful fingers.) But again...without the proper set up, it would be just aggressive attacking. If that's the case, why call it snake? Anybody can do that.

============================================

Interesting you should bring this up in regards to Taiji because isn't the origin story about "Witnessing a Bird fighting a snake"...that was the conception for the beginning of Taiji correct?

I don't believe I've seen tiger for Taiji however...least not this ::)
TAI-CHI TIGER FORM with Bob Klein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-cNBM-aMs
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:40 am

Subitai wrote:

At 3.16 you assume it's easier to break your opponent's grip by dropping your left arm downward instead of rotating inside to against his thumb. In order to prove it, I'm using my right hand to grib on my own left wrist. I can tell that if I rotate my left arm against my right thumb, my left arm can break my right grip. If I drop my left arm downward, my right hand resistance is much stronger and my left arm won't be able to break my right hand grip.

I find the difference is when my left arm drop down, my right arm can drop down too. My right arm's sinking power can cancel out my left arm's sinking power. My right tiger mouth can hold up my left wrist. But when my left arm rotate against my right thumb, there isn't much that my right hand can do but to leg go that grip.

I wonder if you test it on yourself, whether you will draw the same conclusion or not.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby Subitai on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:48 pm

#1 I don't assume that it's easier John. I show it that way to demonstrate attacking the " tigers mouth". Doing this serves a couple of purposes:
- I don't give free energy or motion to the other guys shoulder (therefore his hand) to strike at me. ( I pointed that out in the video)
- it keeps my forearm bones in line with my target...this facilities straight line strikes.

Key detail is when I mention changing the angle of the grip and bones 1st (very important). So for example, if you grab me at 90deg (it really doesn't matter which angle actually)... I will move to increase / decrease the angle so that when I sink or lift it's quite easy to do.

- it is NOT done with slow or steady pressure...it should be snappy type (quick) geng (Jin)

-Keep in mind, I'm not arguing against circling towards the thumb. That is a tried and true method.

However, I laugh at when you suggest have I tried it on myself?...of course it works perfectly!!!

More over I've tried it vs the strongest people.... result is always the same, if they use their tigers mouth to grab me, I can reverse it no problem.

I can't believe there's any confusion in this, I might make another video tonight just to show it more definitively.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:08 pm



I have done more testing on this. When my left arm apply downward force on my right tiger mouth, Not only my right tiger mouse can transfer that force to my right forearm, my right 4 fingers can press down and "lift up" my left arm. In other words, my right hand can prevent my left arm to press down.

I did try to let my left arm to press down as hard as I could on my right tiger mouse. My right hand had no problem to resist and maintain my "wrist control".

Here is an example that the tiger mouse lifting can be as strong as (if not stronger) the downward pressing arm.

Image

May be other RSF members can test this and share their opinion here.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:16 pm

johnwang wrote:

I have done more testing on this. When my left arm apply downward force on my right tiger mouth, Not only my right tiger mouse can transfer that force to my right forearm, my right 4 fingers can press down and "lift up" my left arm. In other words, my right hand can prevent my left arm to press down.

I did try to let my left arm to press down as hard as I could on my right tiger mouse. My right hand had no problem to resist and maintain my "wrist control".

May be other RSF members can test this and share their opinion here.

Here is an example that the tiger mouse lifting can be as strong as the downward pressing arm.

Image


I notice a difference in the strength of my my right depending on how far it is from my chest.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I notice a difference in the strength of my my right depending on how far it is from my chest.

I think the right hand "4 fingers downward pressing" is the key. At least my right hand 4 fingers downward pressing is more powerful than my own left arm downward pressing power.

The interested conclusion is if you don't grab, you can't take advantage on your 4 finger grip strength to counter the downward strength.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: tiger/snake style taichi?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:56 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I notice a difference in the strength of my my right depending on how far it is from my chest.

I think the right hand "4 fingers downward pressing" is the key. At least my right hand 4 fingers downward pressing is more powerful than my own left arm downward pressing power.

The interested conclusion is if you don't grab, you can't take advantage on your 4 finger grip strength to counter the downward strength.


What I find is that at chest height the downward Force is pretty consistent regardless of distance from my chest. Upward force is strongest at about between one and three fists from my chest, weaker at less than one and weakest at greater than three.

If you're resisting up, it's easy to pull that arm straight and push down or to the side or twist.

Like do much it's not an either or proposition, it depends on how strong you are in the desired direction compared to what's opposing you. Instead of locking in to specific angles or movements, using sensitivity to flow into the weak spot wherever it may be is more adaptable
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