TCMA techniques in the modern era

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:24 pm

The 1 actual fight video you posted supports the OP. There is no TCMA bridging (like the 8-Step PM master the OP posted) as in the two Praying Mantis videos I posted:


Maybe its a case of not understanding.
There is bridging as trained within the expected context in which it will be used.
I would argue that the clips of mantis you posted do not reflect the styles claimed, it would be interesting to see the "type" of training each did or does.

I understand what CJW said you've seemed to have missed is rarely seen in actual fighting, Which may or could mean it takes a lot of skill something that not everyone has time nor the motivation to cultivate. Of those I've met over the yrs, all used what they trained and practiced until it did work...Are there easier ways of doing things probably, do different skill levels influence types of practices and strategies kind of depends...

For me the bottom line is to understand and know what one is training for
and train. Within the CMA communities the same questions are asked, and also answered
just not in a public way. Other wise one may have some on knocking on their door...like my friend Roger.

happens :-\
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:42 pm

windwalker wrote:
The 1 actual fight video you posted supports the OP. There is no TCMA bridging (like the 8-Step PM master the OP posted) as in the two Praying Mantis videos I posted:


Maybe its a case of not understanding.
There is bridging as trained within the expected context in which it will be used.

Since you believe your video more represents TCMA, can you give the timestamp(s) of the bridging you see that is like the 8-Step PM master the OP posted?

windwalker wrote:I would argue that the clips of mantis you posted do not reflect the styles claimed, it would be interesting to see the "type" of training each did or does.

marvin8 wrote:Kevin Wong and Sifu Ryan Myrvik believe their years of training in Praying Mantis "makes them representative of the systems they claim."


windwalker wrote:I understand what CJW said you've seemed to have missed is rarely seen in actual fighting, Which may or could mean it takes a lot of skill something that not everyone has time nor the motivation to cultivate.

I believe he means "successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting." If you have "actual fighting" videos of TCMA bridging like the 8-Step PM master the OP posted, it would go towards supporting the OP contention is wrong.
C.J.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting
, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:15 am

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Same thing can also happen in this clip. If his opponent doesn't counter him, he may complete his combo. If his opponent counters him, his opponent's counter will interrupt his combo.


One can theorize about a demo under demo rules (etiquette). But if an opponent does not act that way "in actual fighting," one might question the value of the demo/practice:
marvin8 wrote:Modern fighters normally don't stand in one place or leave their arms out & in place to be bridged, as the opponent did in the 8-Step PM demo video.
C.J.W. wrote:While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.


What if the "modern fighter" was not wearing skins and grappling shorts and was in a crowded room with people on all sides that are crowding him? & what if he was being punched to the face?

- Would he stick his hands up to guard his face? Be the smart thing to do.
- Would he use his footwork to get out of the way? He could try but as mentioned it's crowded.
- Would he level change and do a double leg? It would be tough in a small area and difficult to turn the corner for a strong stable opponent.
- Would he pull guard? Only if he wants to die.

So with the hands in the way what would you do? Smart thing would be to control/clear the hands and that is what this stuff is useful for.

He would use the same fighting skills and techniques (maybe less closed fist) used in the ring. MMA fighters are familiar with fighting in all the ranges. He can use those skills used for fighting in the pocket (close range), which does not require a lot of footwork. MMA fighters can keep their feet in place and still use feints, deception, weight shifts, etc. He could pull counter, slip, parry, etc. He could choose not to go to the ground.

dspyrido wrote:But it is not the answer to everything.

- Is this practise useful against an opponent that level changes? Not as much.
- Is this practise useful against someone who is an outside range fighter and is capable of shifting the range quickly to throw counters? Be hard to apply.
- Is it useful when someone has managed to get the legs or torso in grappling? Not as much.

But does this practise translate to other uses:

- Is it useful against an opponent when in their guard (on the ground)? You bet as it is a great way to pin them and also to avoid being control for a sweep/triangle/armbar (especially when no gi is involved). Plus it sets up ground and pound.
- Is this useful against someone who is pressuring against the fence and trying to control and pin the arms? Yes it is as the same moves of sticking and rolling apply.
- Is it useful if someone is doing "hand play" as found in many wrestling schools in order to clear the arms for a shoot? Same.

It has a place and a use. Some might not see the value but that does not change that it still has use if it is understood how it can be applied. After all that was the same mistake many earlier "modern fighters" made when they dismissed wrestling.

I've already mentioned MMA sees the value and uses types of bridging and trapping with a link to an article.

That is one of the observations of the OP. The "applying" of the TCMA bridge (8-Step PM) "is rarely seen in actual fighting." Three videos of TCMA fighters actually fighting are posted in this thread. I do not see them applying the TCMA bridge. Instead, they clinch and grapple when they get inside.
C.J.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Subitai on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:49 am

C.J.W. wrote:
Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.


[i]Something I wrote earlier:

"Not everyone likes to bridge and stick with eachother...which is at the very HEART of why allot of Traditional Kung Fu fails vs a more MMA pursuit which usually strikes more WESTERN in nature. I.e. they punch and retract their arm (in order to hit again) very quickly and efficiently.
* You can see when a TMA guy...who is used to dealing with opponents who like to ALSO bridge and stick out there arms >>>>>>> all of the sudden he faces someone who will NOT play his game. This is why you see allot of INEXPERIENCED TMA holding their arms out (reaching out) and not effectively covering themselves vs. a good striker. They are at a loss because they have not learned to deal with it.

Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction....

Hence, initially the most obvious way that people would "...drag a boxer out of his comfort zone by using strategies and techniques that are not found in boxing." would be to grapple and take him down... duh!

Aside from that aspect of taking a boxer off his feet (which is a proven method)...if you want to fight with him standing up, you have to STOP HIS ABILITY TO PUNCH. One way is to intercept, catch and / or deny his ability to RETRACT his punch. This can be wrapping him up or getting some sort of hand control... at the very least, tying him up some how.

I've been teaching (obsessed) with this problem ever since my experiences in both MMA and my traditional training met head on together. Proper entering strategies and methods for hand control afterwards are what I focus on teaching the most.

After having fought professionally and on the street this is what I know to be true.

Here in this video at around (50secs) I describe a small example of this


Below is a Short GIF of Fedor basically doing the same thing.
http://giant.gfycat.com/TameMediumGrackle.gif

I have to stress though...this one simple example is NOT the only way that a TCMA could get an unwilling opponent to leave his arms out long enough to bridge with. There's allot of good concepts that I teach to create these opportunities.

The problem with TCMA is...many or most of the Sifu's teaching out there have NOT fought in strange or foreign venues outside there own worlds. So they cannot possibly make the proper "JUMP" to a more modern venue in a realistic manner. Modern professional fighters are FAR MORE Cross trained, more cardio trained and MORE PREPARED for a real confrontation that any sifu or weekend warrior that just does forms and a little push hands 2xs a week.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby everything on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 pm

fantastic demo and fedor gif for comparison (really he does the same thing you just did. cool).

one thing he has is long minutes/hours of tape to study the opponent to see where he probably has those chances in addition to being vastly superior at mma, sambo, judo in general than the rest of us are (I assume).

the street scenarios everyone brings up do not have that advantage.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby .Q. on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:34 pm

Subitai wrote:Below is a Short GIF of Fedor basically doing the same thing.
http://giant.gfycat.com/TameMediumGrackle.gif

That's the exact Machida technique I was talking about. Works even w/ boxing gloves on.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:46 pm

He uses his left hand to guide his opponent's right hand to be away from his right hand striking path.

Image
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:57 pm

Aren't we just talking about arm drags here? No wrestlers in the group anymore or what?
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Aren't we just talking about arm drags here? No wrestlers in the group anymore or what?

The

- "捯(Dao) - arm drag" is to guild your opponent's arm to your other hand in order to free your current hand. You then use your other hand to control his arm and use your current hand to attack. There is a "switch hands" involved here. It's a 1,2,3 moves combo.
- "引(Yin) - arm guide" is to guide your opponent's arm away from your other hand's attacking path. There is no "switch hands" involved here. Its' a 1,2 moves combo.

There is some difference here.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby .Q. on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:42 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Aren't we just talking about arm drags here? No wrestlers in the group anymore or what?

The primary difference is that wrestlers probably don't do it with the intent to prevent a strike during the move. How you approach the arm drag could be slightly different. They can totally do that too, but I imagine that's usually not their concern unless they're doing MMA.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Aren't we just talking about arm drags here? No wrestlers in the group anymore or what?

The

- "捯(Dao) - arm drag" is to guild your opponent's arm to your other hand in order to free your current hand. You then use your other hand to control his arm and use your current hand to attack. There is a "switch hands" involved here. It's a 1,2,3 moves combo.
- "引(Yin) - arm guide" is to guide your opponent's arm away from your other hand's attacking path. There is no "switch hands" involved here. Its' a 1,2 moves combo.

There is some difference here.


Sure. My main point is that these two TCMA techniques are very much relevant in modern fighting.
This video covers a few of the different things we've been talking about lately.

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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trip on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:07 pm

Some might find this interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ31539Cg04
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:42 am

Trip wrote:Some might find this interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ31539Cg04


Aoki Shinya, a Japanese MMAist known for his joint-locking skills, has broken an opponent's elbow in the ring using a very similar lock.

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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:30 pm

Subitai wrote:Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m544at1wa00

Below is a Short GIF of Fedor basically doing the same thing.
http://giant.gfycat.com/TameMediumGrackle.gif

I have to stress though...this one simple example is NOT the only way that a TCMA could get an unwilling opponent to leave his arms out long enough to bridge with. There's allot of good concepts that I teach to create these opportunities.

That video is showing trapping the opponent's block or punch before he retracts his arm. Fedor is not "basically doing the same thing." Fedor pulls (traps) the leading guard hand or feints to draw the hands forward then traps.

There is a timing difference between trying to trap a punch before it is "retracted" and pulling a leading arm guard. The latter results in trapping the arm for a longer period of time; starting the trap before the arm is extended. Also, the timing may be easier.

johnwang wrote:He uses his left hand to guide his opponent's right hand to be away from his right hand striking path.

Image

Yes. Fedor circles to his left, times or feints to draw hands forward, traps the arm, while circling to his right (changing directions) away from opponent's power hand, then finishes. Thus, Fedor takes both of his opponent's weapons (hands) away, before finishing; displayng the concept of "To hit and not get hit."

Some examples (arguably?) of "TCMA techniques in actual fighting."

Rackemann Wing Chun Boxing on May 9, 2017 wrote:Can you use traditional martial arts in actual combat? . . . Machida and Jon Jones through many years of experiencing competitive sparring have acquired a sense of timing, agile footwork, etc. Only after this could they successfully use traditional martial techniques. There is an expert boxer Lomachenko. When you watch him compete he often uses traditional Wing Chun trapping skills such as lan sau, jut sau, lap sau. So, why can he utilize these traditional Wing Chun techniques? He has a lot of experience competing. Therefore, he has also acquired a sense of timing, a sense of distance. Also, improved reflexes. . . .


Rackemann Wing Chun Boxing
Published on Sep 30, 2016

I provide four examples of modified Wing Chun techniques for competitive boxing. Who says you can't do Wing Chun when wearing boxing gloves?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwf54Gq9_V4&t=2m20s

Russ James
Published on Nov 26, 2016

Vasyl Lomachenko using hand traps. The "lead hand pull - straight" is a southpaw vs orthodox tactic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql5AdlYigUw

Russ James
Published on Dec 26, 2016

Vasyl Lomachenko using hand traps. First section covers "pinning" & "occupying guard". Second section covers "gloveswipe - hook:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl3nVafPJoY
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby everything on Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:27 pm

OUCH at those joint breaks. ugh.

2 or more limbs against 1. ouch.

what should the recipient have done if possible?
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