Pliability

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Re: Pliability

Postby cloudz on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 am

Marvin,

At pro / elite levels the athletes / sports people have access to the same level of coaching, nutrition, information etc. more or less. Of course people can find little edges in their game here and there - I'm not disputing that. Take a soccer team for example; they all train the same with the same coach and so on. The difference in performences exist within that squad/ team. Some players are faster, some more skillfull, some shoot or pass better, some run more.. The differences in skills and attributes are many I feel.

I don't think everything is about genetics and talent.. though there are probably some natural traits that can help or hinder where tai chi is concerned. Depends what your measure of performance might be.

Regards Bisping, sure running a lot helps but people that have trained with him a lot have told me he's just exceptional in that department. He can't be the only MMA guy who runs! Even if he's not naturally gifted in that department, do you think it's not possible for someone to simply have better cardio due to their genetics ? I'm not an expert but feel it must be possible, I may be wrong.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby everything on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:23 am

Steve James wrote:The point I was going to make is related, though. I was just going to write that genetics play a big part in team sports. If Brady had been 5'3", he'd never have been chosen to play quarterback on a team


That's an interesting tangent. Obviously on team sports there is so much more going on as far as success factors than absolute "pure" speed as in swimming or 100m sprints, where the difference between medalists is 10ths, 100ths, or 1000ths of a second. Lionel Messi was very, very short. He had to take HGH. Today he is only 5'7". He probably would never have become the best player in the world (of all time according to many) in the most popular sport had he been from the USA or China or Russia. Steph Curry is "only" 6'3". He is considered the best shooter in NBA history by many. He was considered to be risky at one point in time due to his injury history. MA is not a team sport with so many team dynamics, but it is not a "pure" top speed kind of activity, either. No idea what we're talking about, anymore as we've sidetracked a lot, hahaha.
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Re: Pliability

Postby cloudz on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:27 am

I'm talking about the X factor! :D
There's only one Messi, no amount of hours, the best coaches or reading the talent code is going to make another Messi... out of a Scott Parker.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:37 am

do you think it's not possible for someone to simply have better cardio due to their genetics ?


He won't have better cardio. He'll have the potential for better cardio because no two human beings are the same at any given point in time. Some people have bigger hearts and lungs than others from birth. Long legs make it a bit easier to run.

Maybe Brits are just built for cardio. Hey, Roger Bannister was a Brit, no? Then again, the thread is about Brady. How about we compare him to the average Rugby player. :)
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:38 am

cloudz wrote:I don't think everything is about genetics and talent.. though there are probably some natural traits that can help or hinder where tai chi is concerned. Depends what your measure of performance might be.

Genes play more of an important role depending on the sport or activity. A good tai chi player is more made, than born.

cloudz wrote:Regards Bisping, sure running a lot helps but people that have trained with him a lot have told me he's just exceptional in that department. He can't be the only MMA guy who runs! Even if he's not naturally gifted in that department, do you think it's not possible for someone to simply have better cardio due to their genetics ? I'm not an expert but feel it must be possible, I may be wrong.

Yes, I believe certain physical traits may give a better capacity for cardio.
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Re: Pliability

Postby everything on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:39 am

Messi


haha yeah, but slightly back on topic, Steph Curry has changed the entire game of basketball, not just the NBA. Down to the grade school level, players take long shots more than ever before and are breaking individual and collective records.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1500 ... basketball
It's so immensely tough to average four made 3-pointers a game over a full season that, just 11 years ago, not one high school boy in the whole country managed to do it, according to Max Preps. This season, 30 players did it.


in that sense, seeing what the top dog does that was never done or imagined before can help everyone else improve, even though no one else is going to be the "next Steph Curry". maybe in a generation, something else extraordinary will happen.
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Re: Pliability

Postby cloudz on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 am

marvin wrote: A good tai chi player is more made, than born.


I'm not going to necessarily dispute that. But I would maintain that there will certainly be some people who take to it far easier than others and will progress at a faster rate than others in a typical class. having seen this first hand. That's natural affinity to a given persuit. Over time the average or below average student may catch up with hard work or whatever, but it depends what you're going to measure. Are we talking just aesthetics, skill, what skill? etc. And if the natural continues with just as much hard work as the average starter.. I don't know, we all have equal potential in any or every persuit. I struggle to see that somehow.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:01 am

seeing what the top dog does that was never done or imagined before can help everyone else improve,


Depends on the skill. Curry's shooting ability is extraordinary. It has a lot to do with eyesight and depth perception. The rest is practice. It's true that the shooting stats for players coming up are rising, but I'll bet that has more to do with the number of attempts. More players are taking more shots from farther away. There have actually been some calls to create a "4 point" line. However, it's a bit like "the dunk." Not that long ago, it was relatively rare in the NBA, and it was forbidden in college basketball. So, when guys came into the league who were spectacular dunkers, the game changed. And, there have been calls to raise the basket to eleven feet.

More to the issue of genetics, though. At some point, a woman dunked. Now, there are several. It has gone from something only highly gifted men can do to something that kids in the park do regularly. Human athletes are getting better, but the genes aren't really changing -imo.

Women dunking. I'd bet Brady can dunk. Don't know about Messi. :)
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:37 am

cloudz wrote:
marvin wrote: A good tai chi player is more made, than born.


I'm not going to necessarily dispute that. But I would maintain that there will certainly be some people who take to it far easier than others and will progress at a faster rate than others in a typical class. having seen this first hand. That's natural affinity to a given persuit. Over time the average or below average student may catch up with hard work or whatever, but it depends what you're going to measure.

You are talking about two different things. I agree there may be some people that never get good at Tai Chi.

However, Tai Chi the martial art or fighting is a learned skill. One is not born with the higher level skills. The skills are learned. In boxing, most champions have decades of skill learning, drills, pads, sparring, hundreds of fights, etc. A good fighter can take away an opponent's natural speed and power with fighting skills. IMO, champions are made, not born.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:08 am

Progress is an attitude about how much you want something. If you just practice without the hunger to always become better your progress will be slow.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:16 am

Bao wrote:Progress is an attitude about how much you want something. If you just practice without the hunger to always become better your progress will be slow.


I fear you may be hitting a language barrier here, Bao. Progress is not an attitude. Of course, it can be affected by attitude, but it is not an attitude. Maybe you could say that progress depends on your attitude and how much you want something? Is that what you mean?
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:11 am

Steve James wrote:
seeing what the top dog does that was never done or imagined before can help everyone else improve,


Depends on the skill. Curry's shooting ability is extraordinary. It has a lot to do with eyesight and depth perception. The rest is practice. It's true that the shooting stats for players coming up are rising, but I'll bet that has more to do with the number of attempts. More players are taking more shots from farther away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGpFIjIl1hA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N3MjUmSeJw

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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:22 am

Here's the thing. If you (or I) practiced as much as Steph, do you think you'd be as good? Otoh, if Steph didn't practice as much he did, would he be as good? Anyway, there are 300 spots in the NBA, and millions of guys who'd love to have one. Every single one of them is a special athlete. Getting one is a process of elimination, but even the guys who don't make it can be extraordinary --even legendary. There are players that NBAers will know who never made the pros.

Anyway, I wanted to add that will power and courage are also genetic. Michael Jordan, for example, is as gifted in terms of desire to win as he is/was physically. I totally agree that it's often the person who trains the best and most who will have the best results. But, as we know, not everyone will do it.
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Re: Pliability

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:19 am

Steve James wrote:Here's the thing. If you (or I) practiced as much as Steph, do you think you'd be as good? Otoh, if Steph didn't practice as much he did, would he be as good?

As already mentioned, given you have the prerequisite genes (e.g., height) for your sport or activity there are more important factors (e.g., the list I gave). Too much emphasis can be given to genetics to sell a book or make a point. No. Steph would not be as good, "if he didn't practice."

Steve James wrote:Anyway, I wanted to add that will power and courage are also genetic.

What are you basing this statement on? Is there a gene that has been identified?

Your statements are contrary to what the champions themselves, scouts, and trainers in their sport say at the highest level of sports. Cus D'Amato had a big influence on Tyson's power and courage through affirmations and training technique. Trainers and environment have been major factors in making champions.

Julio Caesar Chavez Jr., has the genes of a boxer. However, he is not as successful as his dad. Per Floyd Mayweather Jr., he is successful because of his "hard work and dedication," not genes. And IMO, because of the factors I listed. Genes alone don't make a legend or champion.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pliability

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am

Can a trainer give a fighter the will not to give up? I don't think so. Afa courage, take pro cycling. The difference between a good descender often comes down to courage. There may not be a gene, but it's debatable. And genetic doesn't necessarily mean inherited. The point is that every individual is unique. Hard work is done by champions and by losers in sports.
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