When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:07 am

marvin8 wrote:Sort of disagree. One should remain outside of a boxer's punching range in order to not play his game, until one has an advantage (e.g., position, seize, balance, etc.). Also on the streets, an opponent can be concealing a knife.

Of course if you can keep yourself to be outside of your opponent's punching range, your boxing opponent can never punch at you. But as long as your boxing opponent is standing, he will be a threaten to you unless you are a better boxer than he does. IMO, the only good boxer is a boxer who is on the ground. ;D
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby marvin8 on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:39 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Sort of disagree. One should remain outside of a boxer's punching range in order to not play his game, until one has an advantage (e.g., position, seize, balance, etc.). Also on the streets, an opponent can be concealing a knife.

Of course if you can keep yourself to be outside of your opponent's punching range, your boxing opponent can never punch at you. But as long as your boxing opponent is standing, he will be a threaten to you unless you are a better boxer than he does. IMO, the only good boxer is a boxer who is on the ground. ;D

Did you watch the video?

The kickboxer puts the boxer "on the ground" several times with low kicks from "outside of boxer's punching range." The fight ends with boxer "on the ground," unable to "stand." You do not have to be a "better boxer" or play the boxer's game with the right strategy. -bow-

marvin8 wrote:Published on Apr 16, 2015

How would a champion boxer do against a champion kickboxer? Several boxers have stepped up to the challenge, and the results are mostly the same. The weapons they faced were in direct relation with the way they stand, move, and attack. What worked in one sport must be adapted before it becomes efficient or effective in another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ7bbmjtAB0
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:21 am

I don't care for the guard shown in the first image. Covering by itself is useful. You cover when you cannot evade or parry. However the closed fists on the forehead is a bad idea to cover with. The sides of the hear are still open and if someone targets the fist it could break the hand. This boxing guard works with large gloves but empty hand it has its flaws.

A better empty hand guard is to use an open palm and cup the ear and pull the elbow toward the center of the chest. The lets the forearms take the blows. When someone punches straight you can turn the body to catch the strike with your forearm or move the covering hands to in front, palm against your own forehead. The forearm stays at an angle which deflects some force from the straight punches.

Moving forward is good, but you have to mix it up too. If you only move forward whenever someone strikes at you then someone can set you up to get a head on collision.I prefer moving forward at an angle.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:39 am

The ward off to the right that begins the first grasp sparrows tail is my go to intercepting fist for a right hand should drive forearm into forearm and twist their muscle painfully while breaking the root and exposing the ribs for a strike to help them down.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:26 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:Moving forward is good, but you have to mix it up too. If you only move forward whenever someone strikes at you then someone can set you up to get a head on collision.I prefer moving forward at an angle.

The reason that you want to move

- forward is if you want to lock your opponent's head, the best time to do it is when he punches you and his arm is away from his head. Also your opponent's forward move can save your forward move.
- straight in is you want to separate both of his arms away from his body and go through his front door. If you move forward at an angle, your opponent's leading arm may be cross to his back arm. You may not be able to find those 2 points, 1 point between his head and his right arm, 1 point between his head and his left arm.

You want to move your arm in like the blue guy does.

Image
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:07 pm

johnwang wrote:When your opponent punches at you, you should move in. You should not move back. The reasons are:

You want to

- interrupt his punch during the early stage when speed is still slow and power is still weak.
- fight in your opponent's territory instead of to fight in your own territory.

IMO, the boxing guard that you use both arms to protect your head is too conservative.

Image

You want your fist to be close to your opponent's head. You don't want your fists to be close to your own head.

Image



Moving forward when facing a strike is also a strategy I advocate, especially against someone using a blunt weapon.

However, I don't think that the posture as seen in GM Chang's picture is ideal for defense against wild fast punches, especially those aimed at the head.

One of the reasons CMA often fails against boxing is, IMO, its weak defense against punches throw to the head. Compared to boxers, CMAists often
keep their guards lower at the shoulder level, which leaves the chin and head exposed and vulnerable to knockouts.

But I must say I'm not too fond of the typical boxing "turtle guard" either. It's too defensive and simply turns you into a sturdier human punching bag. The guard I prefer for head defense is the one used in Muay Chaiya, an ancient Thai boxing style. It is both defensive AND offensive in the sense that as the opponent strikes at your head hard, they are practically smashing their arms against your elbows.



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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:54 pm

C.J.W. wrote:However, I don't think that the posture as seen in GM Chang's picture is ideal for defense against wild fast punches, especially those aimed at the head.

When you open your front door, your opponent will punch between your arms. You can then use double circles (left arm clockwise circle, right arm counter-clockwise circle) to press your opponent's punches down. You then move in above his arms. I call that "double spear" strategy.



C.J.W. wrote:The guard I prefer for head defense is the one used in Muay Chaiya, an ancient Thai boxing style. It is both defensive AND offensive in the sense that as the opponent strikes at your head hard, they are practically smashing their arms against your elbows.


His goal and my goal are different. My goal is to obtain a "head lock". In order to achieve my goal, my hands have to be closer to my opponent's head. If I use "comb hair" as he does, my hand will be too far away from his head.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby Tiga Pukul on Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:21 am

Totally agree with this strategy. You have to practice the timing of coming in a lot though. Most respond on what type of attack is coming towards them, and then they move in, which is too late and leaves you open for feints or combinations. If you respond on the start of the movement (even if it's just bringing the hands up) and enter in a 'checked' way you have a good chance of stopping the attack. Unbalancing your opponent is essential to stop his combination.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:18 pm

johnwang wrote:When you open your front door, your opponent will punch between your arms. You can then use double circles (left arm clockwise circle, right arm counter-clockwise circle) to press your opponent's punches down. You then move in above his arms. I call that "double spear" strategy.


The circling hand technique is a good way to redirect a strike and move in to grappling range. However, like you pointed out, it only works well against straight-line attacks directed toward your center gate (i.e., between your arms). The problem with it is that, in my experience, people we normally encounter in street fights are more likely to attack with curved strikes (e.g., wild haymakers, big slaps) aimed at the head, in which case it'd be better -- and faster -- to simply cover the head with elbows up and move in for a simultaneous defense and offense.



johnwang wrote:His goal and my goal are different. My goal is to obtain a "head lock". In order to achieve my goal, my hands have to be closer to my opponent's head. If I use "comb hair" as he does, my hand will be too far away from his head.


The clip I posted only shows the defense in a basic drill with both sides attacking and defending at a distance. In application, it is done at close range while moving towards the opponent (or him towards you), deflecting and attacking at the same time.

The relevant section is between 5:30 to 6:20.




If your close enough to attack the opponent with an elbow from the inner gate, it means you are already in range to put him in a headlock and grapple if you want to.
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:54 pm

C.J.W. wrote:If your close enough to attack the opponent with an elbow from the inner gate, it means you are already in range to put him in a headlock and grapple if you want to.

The "comb hair" is used for "separate hands".

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby Tiga Pukul on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:43 am

As is a saying in our Silat art, mentioned by the late Pendekar Paul de Thouars: 'When an opponent attacks, enter into the heart of the danger'
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Re: When your opponent punches at you, move in, don't move back

Postby driftwood on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:04 am

I have to say that I am totally on board with johnwang's basic strategy here. You must intercept the opponent's intention and intercept the aggression immediately, or as soon as your level of development permits you to. To be able to do this reliably requires a training methodology that ingrains this ability subconsciously, because if you have to consciously think about it you will be late... too slow. The way most people train does not produce this skill. Other skills, yes of course... but not really or directly focusing on this one, and this one is fundamentally critical. Whether you have to move in to destabilize or move more back slightly and yield to a superior force is less important than the state of the unconscious mind that somehow knows the truth of the encounter and causes the body to react appropriately. How do you condition the unconscious mind? You yourself will not know or "decide" to move in or wait and yield to a incoming strike... how you react will manifest based on how have trained, lived life, and ingrained years/lifetimes even, of accumulated mental/physical reactions.

Furthermore, technically speaking, I have found though that when the speed ramps up to real time, the circling hands demonstrated above has not been very effective on it's own. In my experience, you must parry or evade and counter strike destabilizing the opponent and catching the beat ahead of their intention before you can throw or lock. it is a more basic skill. once your mental and physical sensitivity has reached a higher level, you can circle enter and throw at will... John's teacher is a good example of this refinement of skill.
Of course it all depends of the relative experience between practitioners.
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