Compress and Release

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Compress and Release

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:56 pm

HotSoup wrote:
Trick wrote:In the XYQ, Tongbeiquan and Taijiquan that I practice relaxed breathing comes natural from of the practice of the specific "visualizations" that is done, and that is not about thinking on breath in and out or compress an release


Could you elaborate on the visualizations part? What exactly do you visualize and how does it relate to the movement and breathing?

Pulling and pushing, being pulled and doing pulling, being pushed and doing pushing, swimming in air and so on
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby Yeung on Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:23 am

johnwang wrote:Both Baji and XingYi use the "compress (inhale) and release (exhale)" power generation method. As long as you can separate which part of the move is used for compressing - inhale, and which part of the move is used for releasing - exhale. If you coordinate all the compressing as 1 move, and coordinate all the releasing as the 2nd move. No matter how complicate a move may be, it can be as simple as just 2 moves.

Do you think this method can be apply in all CMA systems? Your thought?


Where did you learned these concepts and can you provide the reference to them, or are you talking about reverse breathing?

Because if you compress your lung you exhale, and if you hold you breath and compress you might produce a nasal sound of Heng 哼 and Ha 哈 when you release the rest of the air out of your lung. The kind of practice is not advisable, as the truth is that when you hit someone on the midsection when he or she is holding his or her breath, these sounds will be produced as well.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby johnwang on Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:04 am

Yeung wrote:Where did you learned these concepts and can you provide the reference to them, or are you talking about reverse breathing?

Because if you compress your lung you exhale, and if you hold you breath and compress you might produce a nasal sound of Heng 哼 and Ha 哈 when you release the rest of the air out of your lung. The kind of practice is not advisable, as the truth is that when you hit someone on the midsection when he or she is holding his or her breath, these sounds will be produced as well.

When you compress, you are compressing your whole body and you are not compressing your lung. Let me define the following:

Compress - prepare Fajin.
Release - Fajin.

I like to divide move into 2 parts, prepare Fajin and Fajin. If we compare to the spring, the prepare Fajin is to compress that spring. The Fajin is to release that spring.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:41 pm

As usual I feel John is applying external machanics with internal theory. The truth is it is more like expand and release.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:59 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote: The truth is it is more like expand and release.


"Kai/he is in every movement"

Open/kai for expanding, Close/He when releasing.
This is how you can interpret a movement as "Brush knee". You pull back your arm and expand. When you go forward, you "close" the posture to stabilise.

This might be more in tune with standard mechanics, but I think both ways of applying theory is fine. When there is compress, there is expansion. When there is expansion, there is compression. In a body there is always movement and counter movement. So it depends much on what part of your body you are looking at and how.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby johnwang on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:39 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:As usual I feel John is applying external machanics with internal theory. The truth is it is more like expand and release.

Bao wrote:"Kai/he is in every movement"

Open/kai for expanding, Close/He when releasing.
This is how you can interpret a movement as "Brush knee". You pull back your arm and expand. When you go forward, you "close" the posture to stabilise.

This might be more in tune with standard mechanics, but I think both ways of applying theory is fine. When there is compress, there is expansion. When there is expansion, there is compression. In a body there is always movement and counter movement. So it depends much on what part of your body you are looking at and how.

The problem is sometime Kai/He doesn't suit for the movement. For example, The Taiji "diagonal fly":

1. You move your right palm next to your left waist. At this moment, your left palm is in front of your face. You are in side empty stance.
2. You strike your right arm out to your right. At the same time you pull your left arm to your left. You step into bow-arrow stance.

By using your definition,

- 1 is Kai (but the body is compressed),
- 2 is He (but the body is expanded).

By using inhale/exhale definition,

- 1 is inhale (but the lung is compressed),
- 2 is exhale (but the lung is expanded).

By using my definition,

- 1 is compress,
- 2 is release (expand).
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby wiesiek on Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:21 am

shouldn`t we be able to release anytime? ,
speakin`
so:
there should be kinda of compression all the time - ie, you never release to "0", means totally flat...;)
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:30 am

johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote:Where did you learned these concepts and can you provide the reference to them, or are you talking about reverse breathing?

Because if you compress your lung you exhale, and if you hold you breath and compress you might produce a nasal sound of Heng 哼 and Ha 哈 when you release the rest of the air out of your lung. The kind of practice is not advisable, as the truth is that when you hit someone on the midsection when he or she is holding his or her breath, these sounds will be produced as well.

When you compress, you are compressing your whole body and you are not compressing your lung. Let me define the following:

Compress - prepare Fajin.
Release - Fajin.

I like to divide move into 2 parts, prepare Fajin and Fajin. If we compare to the spring, the prepare Fajin is to compress that spring. The Fajin is to release that spring.


In your case, I am sure it is not Xingyiquan technique. When you inhale you feel the internal compression on your lung because it expands. And when you compress the rest of the body including your ribcage you should feel the external compression on your lung as well unless you do not close your ribcage so to speak. I think you are just using the technique of shortening and relaxing muscles as a kind of compression. Maybe you would like to elaborate a bit more on the way you prepare Fajin and how you Fajin relevant to breathing.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby johnwang on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:18 pm

Yeung wrote: Maybe you would like to elaborate a bit more on the way you prepare Fajin and how you Fajin relevant to breathing.

prepare Fajin - inhale,
Fajin - exhale.

Examples:

1. punch:

downward parry - inhale,
punch - exhale.

2. kick:

skip in - inhale,
side kick- exhale.

3. lock:

palm rotate - inhale,
wrist lock - exhale.

4. throw:

separate hands - inhale,
hip throw - exhale.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:13 pm

johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote: Maybe you would like to elaborate a bit more on the way you prepare Fajin and how you Fajin relevant to breathing.

prepare Fajin - inhale,
Fajin - exhale.

Examples:

1. punch:

downward parry - inhale,
punch - exhale.

2. kick:

skip in - inhale,
side kick- exhale.

3. lock:

palm rotate - inhale,
wrist lock - exhale.

4. throw:

separate hands - inhale,
hip throw - exhale.


In xingyi class, we learned to throw 20+ punches into the bag on a single breath
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby wiesiek on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:34 am

there are quite different schools, even in the system/s/ under name of the same flag, you know :)

perfectly normal
internal means - highly individualized .
as
I`m understanding for today morning.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby Yeung on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:45 am

Low-intensity exercise does not have a lot of impact on breathing but that is not Fajin in the traditional sense. Try one-repetition maximum (one rep maximum or 1RM) and compare with your repetitions.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:21 am

In the following clip, it's easy to tell when the exhale start in a throw.

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:51 pm

There is no time for coordinating the breath in fighting, too much thinking, you learn to circulate the oxygen for maximum energy while exerting force. The breath will become natural and thoughtless.
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Re: Compress and Release

Postby wiesiek on Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:05 am

considering
coordination of the breath during execution of the technique;
as
I recall my tatami days- the best throws done during the competition was always :
breathing out
ha
ippon!
and
Wandering - with thinkin`- doesn`t work :)
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