Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:49 am

would you compare jian technique more to a saber than a rapier? I.e., which techniques would work better with a jian?


I have no idea about Jamie's reply (well, I got it when I hit submit), but I would personally suggest that use of jian is closer to rapier than saber (or maybe more to other rather light swords like a 19th century cutlass?). I've said this before: A jian is not an axe and if you treat it as such you will damage it. It needs quite a light play, using round, sliding movements to cut and stick.

I won't say anything about the level of fencing in general as I've only practiced fencing briefly. But the picture and quality of the vid is beautiful. Wouldn't suspect less.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:04 am

I think that it's very debatable that I leave holes every time I step. If my sword is somehow endangering them then they won't want to rush in, especially since I like to thrust. I think it's unfair to say I have poor fencing basics just because we do things differently. Our footwork is totally different. I don't do as much passing footwork. I tend to snipe from a distance, often one-handed. I have pretty good accuracy. Still, I do have holes in my defenses and I am constantly working on filling them.

In the fencing video you just posted I see their hands getting hit over and over again. To me, that is a problem. It would be super easy to slice at the underside of their arms and legs as well, since they keep rushing in. In real life, assuming that they aren't wearing armour, their limbs would be cut to ribbons. I have been taught to avoid binding if I can, because there's a higher chance that things will go wrong. If both people want to bind, it works great. But if one avoids binding and either uses your power to spin back around and hit you or tricks you into committing, it will be dangerous. In the video I saw a lot of places where this type of strategy would have worked well.

Still, I liked it. The close-range stuff was good. Better than mine, but I'm working on that. There was a lot of showing off, like giving the enemy your back in the video on multiple occasions. But I get it, it looks good. People will enjoy watching it. I don't have a big problem with that unless that is how the always fence. I don't see how this is vastly different than to what I do, quality-wise. I do envy you having access to steel swords and armour, though.

Yes, my training partners aren't all skilled, but there are some good ones too and I taken on any comer and tested my stuff as well. When it stops working against better opponents then I'll change my game! My Master is skilled in both unarmed and armed fighting. That counts for something, though you've never met him or experienced it. I don't mind criticism (if it's warranted), but stating that I have poor fencing basics is just plain wrong. Now that I've seen what you think is good fencing I feel a lot better, honestly, because I see a lot of holes to exploit as well. I'm not going to say that they lack good fencing basics, though. It's just different.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:08 am

Bao wrote:
would you compare jian technique more to a saber than a rapier? I.e., which techniques would work better with a jian?


I have no idea about Jamie's reply (well, I got it when I hit submit), but I would personally suggest that use of jian is closer to rapier than saber (or maybe more to other rather light swords like a 19th century cutlass?). I've said this before: A jian is not an axe and if you treat it as such you will damage it. It needs quite a light play, using round, sliding movements to cut and stick.

I won't say anything about the level of fencing in general as I've only practiced fencing briefly. But the picture and quality of the vid is beautiful. Wouldn't suspect less.

That is true, but they are much shorter than rapier as well, perhaps the length of a small sword, but heavier? I prefer Dao because it applies to other weapons more readily and the weapon is more forgiving. I'm not exactly a scholar either, so I don't mind being a little rough around the edges. 8-)
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:47 am

windwalker wrote:Arthur, my friend collects old CMA weapons from thousands of yrs back. Its nice to be able to feel and see
some of the very old blades of the past.

A little curious, how does your friend get his hands on such antiques are they out there on the open market?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:56 am



Thanks - clearly a lot of skill going on there.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:20 am

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:Arthur, my friend collects old CMA weapons from thousands of yrs back. Its nice to be able to feel and see
some of the very old blades of the past.

A little curious, how does your friend get his hands on such antiques are they out there on the open market?


He's collected for many yrs some of his collection is on loan to different museums in the states

Image

stone age blades....attached to a shaft through the holes.

recently he showcased part of his collection. At the 26th CMAT UC martial arts program hosted by Sifu Bryant Fong, CMAT Tournament Chairman.


Image
"the various weapons only on display for sunday march 25th 2018 range from the past hundred to more then a thousand years ago. Including an assortment oF jade hand guards and iron age relics, weapons such as the ming dao, and traditional chando swords, and jan from several different dynasties. "

He's traveled extensively throughout china and asia in collecting his collection. A very interesting guy taught by some famous old time shifu in the bay area. We talked about the passing of some of the old masters that we both knew back in the day.....Not many people around to carry on the skill sets...

The stuff he has from the last hundred yrs or so are still functional and very sharp. He likes to keep em functional ;) when possible.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:48 am

jaime_g wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The rapier video was interesting, though a bit slow. We can't fight like that with our swords nor could they fight like us. Different methods for different swords.

Was not impressed with the longsword stuff. A lot of that just would not work in actual fighting unless conditions were 100% ideal - which is very rare, indeed. Also, no fencing. Show us good longsword fencing. That should be more similar to what I do, but with less single-handed techniques used.



All the stuff shown on the longsword video works on sparring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYuWEZMTI3s


Was wondering about the weight of the weaponry as Steve mentioned, and Maarten, shows and talks about.
My friends swords were not light nor flexible at all. In Korea, the teacher I studied from also had real weapons "dao" the weight and inflexibility of the weapons gave meaning and usage to the movements used to practice with them, a little different then the wushu routines. .... One had to understand how to move their body around the weapon rather then it around the body...the swords he had weren't very long

Image
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:08 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:Arthur, my friend collects old CMA weapons from thousands of yrs back. Its nice to be able to feel and see
some of the very old blades of the past.

A little curious, how does your friend get his hands on such antiques are they out there on the open market?


He's collected for many yrs some of his collection is on loan to different museums in the states

Image

stone age blades....attached to a shaft through the holes.

recently he showcased part of his collection. At the 26th CMAT UC martial arts program hosted by Sifu Bryant Fong, CMAT Tournament Chairman.


Image
"the various weapons only on display for sunday march 25th 2018 range from the past hundred to more then a thousand years ago. Including an assortment oF jade hand guards and iron age relics, weapons such as the ming dao, and traditional chando swords, and jan from several different dynasties. "

He's traveled extensively throughout china and asia in collecting his collection. A very interesting guy taught by some famous old time shifu in the bay area. We talked about the passing of some of the old masters that we both knew back in the day.....Not many people around to carry on the skill sets...

The stuff he has from the last hundred yrs or so are still functional and very sharp. He likes to keep em functional ;) when possible.

Thanks, interesting and facinating. Of course there are ways, but anyway to get a thousand year old antique(especially a sword) out from its country of origin seem to be risky business
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:16 am

windwalker wrote:
jaime_g wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The rapier video was interesting, though a bit slow. We can't fight like that with our swords nor could they fight like us. Different methods for different swords.

Was not impressed with the longsword stuff. A lot of that just would not work in actual fighting unless conditions were 100% ideal - which is very rare, indeed. Also, no fencing. Show us good longsword fencing. That should be more similar to what I do, but with less single-handed techniques used.



All the stuff shown on the longsword video works on sparring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYuWEZMTI3s


Was wondering about the weight of the weaponry as Steve mentioned, and Maarten, shows and talks about.
My friends swords were not light nor flexible at all. In Korea, the teacher I studied from also had real weapons "dao" the weight and inflexibility of the weapons gave meaning and usage to the movements used to practice with them, a little different then the wushu routines. .... One had to understand how to move their body around the weapon rather then it around the body...the swords he had weren't very long

Image

Yes I have wondered about this too especially with the blade of a Jian that where to be used, they must have been quite sturdy?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:36 am

Jaime_g, small sword technique is interesting with respect to pointing. I think that the jian uses more slicing --though not swinging-- at strategic targets. They don't have a basket or bowl hilt to protect the hand. Most importantly, I'm assuming that the fighters are vulnerable to slashes, for ex. --maybe in that sense similar to rapier. Obviousl different I know.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:37 am

Trick wrote:Yes I have wondered about this too especially with the blade of a Jian that where to be used, they must have been quite sturdy?


The ones he had were. Nothing like the kind used in the parks for practice, these were relatively heavy not flexible at all. Ones wrist and ankles
had to be very flexible to enable some of the common movements seen in the modern demo forms. Good question about getting old swords out, I'll ask and see if he will say publicly ;)

Image
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:46 am

Steve James wrote:Jaime_g, small sword technique is interesting with respect to pointing. I think that the jian uses more slicing --though not swinging-- at strategic targets. They don't have a basket or bowl hilt to protect the hand. Most importantly, I'm assuming that the fighters are vulnerable to slashes, for ex. --maybe in that sense similar to rapier. Obviousl different I know.


some hilts from back in the day

Image
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:49 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:Yes I have wondered about this too especially with the blade of a Jian that where to be used, they must have been quite sturdy?


The ones he had were. Nothing like the kind used in the parks for practice, these were relatively heavy not flexible at all. Ones wrist and ankles
had to be very flexible to enable some of the common movements seen in the modern demo forms. Good question about getting old swords out, I'll ask and see if he will say publicly ;)

Image


My friends response

I started collecting some 20 years ago when nobody cared about Chinese weapons, now they’re both expensive and hard to get.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Greg J on Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:03 pm

Nice video, Maarten. One thing to perhaps consider for future videos is your purpose for filming and sharing. If it is to document your journey, then a mix of things is fine. If it is an instructional video, then I suggest following the Dog Brothers maxim "if you see it taught, you see it fought." Teach the techniques, and and then show these techniques being used successfully (and perhaps unsuccessfully, with commentary explaining why they failed) in sparring. Consider saving the scenic footage for an intro, or outro.

As for the sparring itself, I saw a lot that I liked. You entered and exited under structure, you did a nice job of attacking from different angles, and mixing up different strikes (i.e., thrusts, power slashes, probing shots, and hits to the hand).

The only suggestions I have is to work on chaining more of your strikes together to form 3 - 4 (or even 4 - 5) strike combinations. Also, consider moving from guard to guard, rather than holding a single guard and attacking from that one guard. Doing so telegraphs your strikes.

Take care and keep training!

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:30 pm

Windwalker, your pics don't post.

windwalker wrote:
Steve James wrote:Jaime_g, small sword technique is interesting with respect to pointing. I think that the jian uses more slicing --though not swinging-- at strategic targets. They don't have a basket or bowl hilt to protect the hand. Most importantly, I'm assuming that the fighters are vulnerable to slashes, for ex. --maybe in that sense similar to rapier. Obviousl different I know.


some hilts from back in the day
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