Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:53 am

Finny wrote:the 'engetsu' effect the kuda yari they use creates is scary.

Engetsu - is that twisting the spear while thrusting?......Sorry to go off topic
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby LaoDan on Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:31 pm

Pandrews,

While this is off topic for this thread, I hope that it is not a problem (it is still about Chinese swordsmanship).

Even though I am not very knowledgeable about Xing Yi weapons, I have learned several, including the San Cai Jian paired form (although I learned it from a TJQ teacher). That form does not have many “from contact” techniques (the blades rarely touch), although it does typically stay within the “engaged” range. I also learned a 5 element Xing Yi two-person jian drill that continuously cycles through the techniques; this form is similar in that only one technique involves blade to blade deflection (the other techniques use evasion). I probably have not learned the 5 element jian that you practice, so could you comment on any stylistic differences that your Xing Yi jian has with how the following San Cai Jian paired form is performed (note that these performers are students of Yang Jwing-Ming, so it likely has a TJQ flavor/bias)? If I did not know any background on this form, or the performers, I would be unable to determine whether what they perform is from TJQ or XYQ. I realize that choreographed forms are different from free sparring, but the forms should illustrate characteristics of the particular style.



I have also learned part of a 12 animal Xing Yi San He Dao form (the first and third sections can be matched into a two-person routine) that seems to differ quite significantly from the 5 element Xing Yi dao forms that I have seen videos of. The 12 animal dao form is also one that I would have a difficult time determining whether it was XYQ or TJQ just by looking at it without knowing its background. This Xing Yi dao form seems to be quite compatible with TJQ, more so than the 5 element dao forms that I have seen videos of. Are there some qualitative stylistic differences between branches of XYQ that focus their weapons work on the 5 elements vs. the 12 animals (e.g., there seems to be more of an emphasis on San Ti Shi in the 5 element weapons forms than there is in the San He Dao or the San Cai Jian forms, where I do not really notice it)?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby LaoDan on Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:49 pm

For those who are interested, the following shows a choreographed TJQ jian sparring form that can be compared to the San Cai Jian form posted previously:

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby wetmarble on Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:02 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Not being rude helped. You posting videos helped me to understand where you are coming from. Some of these other clowns are just being obnoxious and have yet to offer any solid arguments for their positions, which I demand if they are going to dismiss my stuff. I think that kind of attitude is toxic. I'm not a turn the other cheek kind of person. I put a lot of work into this video and my training in general and I will not tolerate rude behaviour. I'm expecting common decency. Is that too much to ask?


I find it exceedingly ironic that you speak about expecting common decency and not tolerating rude behavior, while simultaneously being rude and lacking common decency.

If you treat people with respect, you will often find that they return the favor to you.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:53 pm

I was on a court case recently. We saw a video of the victim being stabbed about 6 times. He was sitting there in court testifying --in a different leather coat. The knife thrusts at close range penetrated very little through his coat. He received 4 staples in his chest and two stitches in his hand. My point is that, imho, an experienced sword (or blade) user will cut-stab where there's no armor. Likewise, every experienced swordsperson in the past would be aiming to do the same thing. If both are similarly garbed and are wielding similar weapons, I would say their techniques will be similar.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Oh, this came up on my Youtube feed. What do ya'll think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huk0wc4SWbY
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:34 pm

Trick wrote:
Finny wrote:the 'engetsu' effect the kuda yari they use creates is scary.

Engetsu - is that twisting the spear while thrusting?......Sorry to go off topic


Hi Trick - in a way. The Owari Kanryu folks hold a kuda (sleeve) in their forward hand, which allows the spear to slide faster. They have a specific way of twisting the spear to create the engetsu effect - see here at about 2:00. It's a shame I can't find another film I've seen where one of their seniors demos it in a darkened dojo, thrusting a massive blade into a shaft of light in the middle of the dojo.. it looks like 3 foot long blender blades buzzing straight at you.

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:40 pm

GrahamB wrote:Looks like you're having a fun time to me Maarten. Keep at it!

(What's wrong with looking like "less formal kendo" anyway??)

I was watching a Dog Brothers video just now - that's messy as hell. Fighting looks like fighting.

Ja, I suppose it could be worse.. :)
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Pandrews1982 wrote:Maarten,

I think with the right attitude you're going to do well and improve a lot, don't rise to the bait of trolls and get defensive. If there are valid points address them if someone is legitimately a troll just ignore them. It's difficult but I've had to learn to do it. I get lots of trolling all the time on my xing yi videos. Either I'm hurting people and it's too harsh on my partners or I'm not extreme enough and it wouldn't work on the street (still looking for this street with all the fighting happening on it...) so you'll never please anyone.

I think playing with a real live blade would be good for your practice. As I said try cutting a tatami with a t-shirt around it. Cut from different distances with different intent, different angles. See what actually works.

We assume that the hands are unprotected. Looking at historical armour, there is little protection provided to the hands. Sometime the brigandine of the Qing bannermen extended over the wrist for some protection but it's nothing like the European gauntlets. So yes hand is legitimate and a strike even if not a cut may be bad news. But it still has to have force in the strike.

I didn't say I would take a cut though. I don't particularly want to be cut at all. But if you put a sharp blade a couple of inches from me and I'm wearing a thick wool sweater and I say go on cut me without pulling back to swing I doubt there are many people who could do it. It's physics not skill. A drawing cut or a pushing cut might go through the cloth but then they are not likely to do a lot of damage. A straight hack would do nothing I bet. It's about understanding what the weapon is actually capable of. So I wouldn't say I'd stand and take a rain of blows going toe to toe (like in the dog brothers video) but there are situations where you can get in a position which would nullify the effectiveness of the weapon.

Also note that when you have a live blade and so does your partner then you become much more reserved and less wild swings because one mistake and you're dead. Those guys in the video doing sword and buckler also do sparring without protection using sharp swords and their sparring looks almost the same with and without sharps. I think it's good fencing and they always show good control.

As for Dog Brothers I don't particularly like a lot of it because they just carry on through multiple hits, hits which with heavy blades and no armour would do serious damage.

Yes, I will definitely train with real blunt blades and/or wooden swords at one point and also do test-cutting. When that happens will depend on my funds.. I expect it will change things. Yesterday I had the chance to handle a number of blades, including a really nice blunt Miaodao. My edge alignment was really good, though if it would stay that way when cutting I do not yet know. The idea of wrapping a T-shirt around is really good, as that may be enough to stop a cut. My Master told me that many warriors of days past wrapped themselves in silk and that it was very effective in stopping cuts.

I can't open the Dog Brothers video right now, but I'm not a fan of multiple hits. With stick fighting, possibly..... Depending on what kind of sticks are used.

In my mind there are two ways to fence and improve real fighting. One way is to use real weapons and fence very carefully. The other is to use safer weapons and go all out. Both have their merits. I am a strong believer that if one only trains one approach that the latter is more realistic. Ideally we should train both ways to really master the art. Those bouts where people don't have to worry about after-blows because multiple hits are allowed aren't realistic at all.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:00 pm

LaoDan wrote:I primarily agree with your evaluations of Maarten’s video, although I have less experience/skill, and our differing approaches make it difficult for me to comment on his video. Thanks for posting your insights.


I think that there are two reasons for people not liking my fencing - some of my faults notwithstanding. The first is the format. My format is using safer weapons but going all out. It seems many are religiously against that. I can't do anything about that, but I strongly encourage everyone to try my way. If everyone had to box without gloves they wouldn't be able to spar nearly as much and improve as quick. The second is that they are expecting to see Jianfa. The Dao is a completely different weapon that doesn't handle as subtly as a Jian. The weight is more forward and they require more strength to use (and I have trained that), but deliver heavier cuts. They are less dexterous and consequently change the way we fence. Movements are bigger because the waist is used to move the heavier blade, which means that footwork is generally bigger as well. Since the hand isn't protected that well on Chinese swords it will look different than European sabre as well.

I don't mind if you go "off topic". Perhaps I should have entitled the thread "Daofa" and saved myself a lot of headaches.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:02 pm

Finny wrote:Who here has dismissed your stuff? Graham said it looked like less formal kendo - I agreed with him (as did a few others) - and you threw a tantrum.

The solid argument for my position - that you are hitting each other with padded sticks, not fighting with swords... is that you are hitting each other with padded sticks.

GrahamB wrote:Looks like you're having a fun time to me Maarten. Keep at it!

(What's wrong with looking like "less formal kendo" anyway??)


Exactly what I said - don't be such an asshole Graham, haven't you been reading the thread?

You then proceeded to say that it was a game and sarcastically said "Good luck with that." Rather rude, no?

Well, please show us your video where you are fighting with real swords, then. I can't wait to see it.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:09 pm

Steve James wrote:I was on a court case recently. We saw a video of the victim being stabbed about 6 times. He was sitting there in court testifying --in a different leather coat. The knife thrusts at close range penetrated very little through his coat. He received 4 staples in his chest and two stitches in his hand. My point is that, imho, an experienced sword (or blade) user will cut-stab where there's no armor. Likewise, every experienced swordsperson in the past would be aiming to do the same thing. If both are similarly garbed and are wielding similar weapons, I would say their techniques will be similar.

That's quite interesting and seems to go along with what people in the era of swords have said.

I am not interested in these applications videos because they don't show whether they can use these techniques against resisting opponents. There is a lot of hard training and many small details required to use it effectively. That's more important to me than "If he does X, I do Y."
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:10 pm

wetmarble wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Not being rude helped. You posting videos helped me to understand where you are coming from. Some of these other clowns are just being obnoxious and have yet to offer any solid arguments for their positions, which I demand if they are going to dismiss my stuff. I think that kind of attitude is toxic. I'm not a turn the other cheek kind of person. I put a lot of work into this video and my training in general and I will not tolerate rude behaviour. I'm expecting common decency. Is that too much to ask?


I find it exceedingly ironic that you speak about expecting common decency and not tolerating rude behavior, while simultaneously being rude and lacking common decency.

If you treat people with respect, you will often find that they return the favor to you.

Please point out where I was initiating any rude behaviour.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:22 pm

I just watched that Dog Brothers video. It may not all be pretty (a lot of it is more sloppy than I'd like), but other than the multiple hits issue, I prefer that sort of fencing. Since my intention is that the sword training translates into modern self defence with other types of more stick-like objects, I find this approach to be more realistic. Any of you are free to disagree, but I think that it would be foolish on your part to not at least try it this way and see how you fare. I definitely intend to try it the other way before long to improve myself.

I also liked the music. Perfect for this sort of thing. Looks like they are having a lot of fun!
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:53 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:You then proceeded to say that it was a game and sarcastically said "Good luck with that." Rather rude, no?

Well, please show us your video where you are fighting with real swords, then. I can't wait to see it.


I'm sorry you thought I was rude - in fact I meant good luck with it; intense competitive activity can be risky, as you've noted yourself. But is incredibly fun and rewarding.. as I also noted.

I don't post video of myself. I'm sure it wouldn't be particularly impressive - it would look like many other members of my school which can be seen online (and imo are not particularly thrilling viewing.. but I guess I've seen it done thousands of times..)
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