Chen Taiji, why the hate?

[D_Glenn]

Those old gong fu challenge stories are the weirdest and basically just show the master using foul play

What part of it do you think is foul play

The Dong should have gotten up and formally squared off and not taking advantage of the situation where challenger still focused paying respect to the royals - foul play I say.

But the weirdest part out of the many weird(such as using special fali to knock out someone’s teeth. and the knocked out teeth deliberately swallowed..as some examples) is that Dong, challenger and prince …….and probably many readers of the story think it was really a display of high mastery.

There’s no telling what actually went down, but what is certain is that they didn’t live in a Shaw Brothers movie. Times were harsh. Shortly after that the two of them were sent north to serve as bodyguards for tax collectors. So testing a student is more to see if you trust someone to have your back.

The Fanlang Jin is how he popped up out of his seat. There’s Xin-Yi people who still practice this method to develop their power.

[Trick]

What part of it do you think is foul play

The Dong should have gotten up and formally squared off and not taking advantage of the situation where challenger still focused paying respect to the royals - foul play I say.

But the weirdest part out of the many weird(such as using special fali to knock out someone’s teeth. and the knocked out teeth deliberately swallowed..as some examples) is that Dong, challenger and prince …….and probably many readers of the story think it was really a display of high mastery.

There’s no telling what actually went down, but what is certain is that they didn’t live in a Shaw Brothers movie. Times were harsh. Shortly after that the two of them were sent north to serve as bodyguards for tax collectors. So testing a student is more to see if you trust someone to have your back.

The Fanlang Jin is how he popped up out of his seat. There’s Xin-Yi people who still practice this method to develop their power.

Ummm, Testing a student? Your story said it was a basically unknown challenger.

the story you posted was indeed SB’esk and yet tells nothing of great mastery.
Popping up from one’s seat and punch someone in the mouth is of course a little better act than punching a seated person in the mouth, something I remember reading on Jarek’s website about some Xinyiquan master doing.

Anyway, being sent north to collect taxes was maybe the punishment the prince gave them both for disrespecting the peace of his quarters.


About Skillful popping up from seated positions the Japanese martial arts display that masterfully.

[Bao]

The problem is that stories just keep changing and changing. A teacher spoke about one incident where he had to defend himself from two attackers. The very next day people were going around saying that he had literally crushed the ribcage on one of them and pulled his heart out. Every single detail of the story was instantly distorted and has kept changing by the years, we, a few who remember what he actually said just keep quiet.

[D_Glenn]

Ummm, Testing a student? Your story said it was a basically unknown challenger.

the story you posted was indeed SB’esk and yet tells nothing of great mastery.
Popping up from one’s seat and punch someone in the mouth is of course a little better act than punching a seated person in the mouth, something I remember reading on Jarek’s website about some Xinyiquan master doing.

Anyway, being sent north to collect taxes was maybe the punishment the prince gave them both for disrespecting the peace of his quarters.


About Skillful popping up from seated positions the Japanese martial arts display that masterfully.

I don’t know all the nuances of the protocols of challenging someone but asking to become someone’s student, was the same thing as saying that you want to fight them. So he was a‘potential’ student.

Say that instead of swallowing his teeth he made a big scene and spit them and blood out all over. What would that have demonstrated?

Something else happened. I think that, that prince, who loved martial arts, learning them and hanging out with martial artists, died and then someone else, who wasn’t fond of Dong Haichuan took over. There’s a member of RSF who has all the details and dates of when the prince’s ruled. He’s done a lot of research into the happenings at the Forbidden City.

This is popping up from a wooden chair, with no use of ones legs, just the lumbar to press the sacrum and tailbone against the hard surface and propel the whole body upward.
Here’s a clip of someone showing it


https://youtube.com/shorts/QxOsb7fbCJw?si=fw_QaRMVdTTIKhIN

https://www.facebook.com/100002410101181/posts/2907089279381380/?d=n

[D_Glenn]

.

[windwalker]

About Skillful popping up from seated positions the Japanese martial arts display that masterfully.

Transcendental Meditation used to train something similar, maybe still does ...

agree, getting hit in the mouth unexpected a cheap shot...happens

[wayne hansen]

That trick was exposed decades ago

[twocircles13]

At 0.13, his opponent steps in right leg so deep that give him an opportunity to use his left leg to sweep (or scoop) his opponent's right leg and take his opponent down. IMO, he has no intention to use his leg skill in Taiji push hand. This is also my general comment about most of the "push" video. We can see arms play with arms. But we don't see leg play with leg.

At 0.28, you can see some "leg play with leg".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFd9jJyuc7U

Thanks for your comment and interest.

You are right, at 0:13, Hong could have swept the opponent’s leg. However, at that point he is teaching and demonstrating a push hands drill, so sweeping the leg would have defeated the purpose of the exercise. There were many points at which Hong could have punched him in the face, but again, that was not the purpose of the drill.

Taijiquan push hands is not shuai jiao. Their purposes are not the same.

Also, take into account what is being demonstrated. One would not expect to see a hip throw if the demonstrator were showing a back fist, even though the positioning might be ideal.

But, lest you think that taijiquan never attacks the leg, here is a except form a push hands demo with Chen Zhonghua illustration different kind of techniques. there are uses of the legs throughout, and there are some places where he could use his legs but uses a different type of skill.

But, once again, this is a demo illustrating different push hands skills. The opponents are not countering or trying to find openings to applying their own techniques. This demo is a teaching tool to illustrate to participants the kinds of things they will be learning.



While this is a more advanced demonstration in that he is not limiting himself to just upper body techniques. The technical level is somewhat mixed.

[origami_itto]

Not everybody has to fight or train the same way. Different gear for different grunt.

John Wang is Draxx.

[twocircles13]

I don’t agree with the way you say it but these guys never attack the teacher
They just do the exercise until he is ready to send them away

Thanks, good eye.

There are two ways to set up the opponent that are opposite sides of the same coin. Let them "power up" to attack, or get them to "power up" to defend. There are other methods that do not require engagement of the musculature in preparation for action (powering up), but those are not illustrated here.

In these videos, they do the second method. Rather than attack their teacher who is in his late 80s, they let him attack them. The attack feels real, but it is a feint. When he feels them respond, he triggers the stored energy of their defense to toss them back.

[johnwang]

You are right, at 0:13, Hong could have swept the opponent’s leg. However, at that point he is teaching and demonstrating a push hands drill, so sweeping the leg would have defeated the purpose of the exercise.

What's the reason that Taiji push hand training does not include "leg skill" training such as foot sweep, scoop, shin bite, ...? If a Taiji person doesn't train such skill in push hand, when will he train it?

From the combat point of view, do you think "leg skill" should be included in the Taiji PH training?

[origami_itto]

You are right, at 0:13, Hong could have swept the opponent’s leg. However, at that point he is teaching and demonstrating a push hands drill, so sweeping the leg would have defeated the purpose of the exercise.

What's the reason that Taiji push hand training does not include "leg skill" training such as foot sweep, scoop, shin bite, ...? If a Taiji person doesn't train such skill in push hand, when will he train it?

From the combat point of view, do you think "leg skill" should be included in the Taiji PH training?

Why do Shuai Jiao matches not include "uppercut punch"?

[johnwang]

Why do Shuai Jiao matches not include "uppercut punch"?

This is why SC has been evolved into combat SC in the past 40 years that include everything (except ground game).

A SC student cannot obtain his black belt by entering the sport SC tournament only. He has to enter the combat SC tournament that kick/punch/lock/throw are all allowed.

[wayne hansen]

If the teacher is too old to diffuse an attack there is no point in him showing the response
Nothing in tai chi is done without borrowing the opponents energy or it is not tai chi
I am in my 70’s and expect full energy from anyone I work wirh
I was not talking about Hong specifically but teachers in general
In most cases they go through the exercise and at a random point push the student away
The student does not yield to the push and try to neutralise but quite the opposite pushes against the already moving train to add to the propulsion
Then to top it off does the hippy hoppy with a side of foot slapping

[origami_itto]

Why do Shuai Jiao matches not include "uppercut punch"?

This is why SC has been evolved into combat SC in the past 40 years that include everything (except ground game). I'll never ignore any effective combat tools.

That's "John Wang's Practice" Shuai Jiao as a sport has illegal techniques. Why does Shaui Jian not have qinna or striking or submission holds?

https://mhkungfu.com/CACMA/shuai-jiao-rules-2/
Illegal Techniques:
Use of the following techniques are illegal: striking the opponent with the head, fingers, palm, fist, forearm, elbow, knee, shin or foot; biting, spitting or gouging; and attempting to dislocate joints or break bones.
Hair pulling
Grabbing the opponent’s pants;
Grabbing the opponent to prevent falling down;
Grabbing with both hands and holding still for more than 5 seconds.

https://www.wfmaf.org/en/championship/c ... huai-jiao/
Illegal Techniques

Strike the opponent with the head, digits, palm, fist, forearm, elbow, knee, shin or foot; bite, spit or gouge the opponent; attempt to dislocate the opponent’s joints; attempt to break the opponent’s bones; pull the opponent’s hair; pull the opponent’s trousers; pull the opponent down once thrown; continue to grapple on the area once the opponent has been thrown; stamp or stand on the opponent’s foot; use the hand or forearm to cover the opponents face; and block continuously (to a count of 5 seconds) without attempting any techniques.