Yang family

[Steve James]

Steve both the forms you posted Tung And Wu fast forms follow the same sequences that all the major forms follow

Not that I can see, particularly not the footwork. Ymmv.

[origami_itto]

Steve both the forms you posted Tung And Wu fast forms follow the same sequences that all the major forms follow

Not that I can see, particularly not the footwork. Ymmv.

Yeah I don't know the Wu but I'm studying the Dong family form and it is much different.

Wayne may be confusing it with the "Fajin form" which is the Yang long form done fast.

The family form is Dong Yingjie's creation, the speed varies

[ParadoxTeapot]

There is a subset of Yang Style that seems to have redefined Fa Jin to mean something else.

As seen in videos posted on this forum related to Fa Jin in Taijiquan, Baguazhang, and Xingyiquan, they're all approximately some form of accelerated power.

Whereas in today's Yang Style, a lot of what I see titled "Fa Jin" is gently and softly pushing a partner's hands/forearms; said partner then deliberately staggers back. A lot of Yang Style seems to be characterized by constant speed - not acceleration. Even their punch and kicks are done slowly and at a constant speed. So in a lot of "Fast Form", it's not really Fa Jin since the only thing that changed is that the constant speed is higher. Of course, not all of them are like that, and some of them do accelerate. But they generally use momentum - not force.

Personally, I think a characteristic of Fa Jin that distinguishes itself from something like Boxing is the deceleration. A boxer would accelerate their punch, but they don't care too much about deceleration. So if a punch misses, there's a tendency for it to continue flying.

But in Chinese martial arts, Fa Jin generally seems to have the characteristic of a sudden, crisp stop. So it's generally acceleration followed by a high deceleration that stops it at a predefined position.

But in a lot of Yang Style, it's very rare to see them accelerate. They're mostly all about constant speed. Even the sequences in their form that are explicitly about punching and kicking are still done at a constant speed.

[windwalker]

I'd argue that's why a lot of Tai Chi doesn't martially work - because they don't care about structure.

But also, if the outside appearance was irrelevant, then that also means that teachers are unable to visually judge how well their students are doing. That would be hilarious.
They're just staring at their students, clueless about how well they are doing.

a counter argument, they do, just not in the way you might think

Whether something works martially or otherwise dependent on the practitioner no ?

It might be more fair to say, that those seeking to develop it, are not that concerned with the martial, understanding it won't work until a certain level of development is reached..


some methods don't use structure in the same way that some might look for.
Ben Lo, used to say taiji is a martial art...its like a machine gun instead of a pistol....

takes a little time to learn how to use it...

[origami_itto]

It's hard to unpack the misunderstandings there lol.

There's really a lot of misunderstanding in general around taijiquan but fajin is like ground zero.

In Yang style it refers to a particular way of generating force. We store energy like drawing an arrow, keep it ready as we move, and release it as a single force vector like shooting an arrow.

Most folks in casual play haven't trained the sparrow's hop so it is irresponsible to send them out with too much force for a number of reasons. You learn how to work with people though. Generally they are moving against their will and out of their control. It can greatly agitate some people which is another good reason to keep things as light as possible.

What people miss is that they're looking at training. We're trying to get the maximum effect with the minimum effort and force. Once you've got that, you can start working on making it more powerful, but until you do you're working on something else.

[johnwang]

But in a lot of Yang Style, it's very rare to see them accelerate. They're mostly all about constant speed. Even the sequences in their form that are explicitly about punching and kicking are still done at a constant speed.

The constant speed is also called bulldozer speed. It has value in wrestling art. It has no value in striking art. Yang Taiji put itself between the striking art and the wrestling art.

- For striking art, it has no acceleration.
- For wrestling art, it has no leg skill (at least it does not emphasize leg skill).

- 1 point contact is strike.
- 2 or 3 points contact is throw.

Yang Taiji uses 1 point contact push that is neither a strike nor a throw. I truly don't understand why Yang Taiji wants to put itself in such a strange position.

To bring Yang Taiji back into

- striking art, you need to bring back accelerate Faji.
- wrestling art, you need to bring back leg skill.

[windwalker]

It's hard to unpack the misunderstandings there lol.

There's really a lot of misunderstanding in general around taijiquan but fajin is like ground zero.

In Yang style it refers to a particular way of generating force. We store energy like drawing an arrow, keep it ready as we move, and release it as a single force vector like shooting an arrow.

Most folks in casual play haven't trained the sparrow's hop so it is irresponsible to send them out with too much force for a number of reasons. You learn how to work with people though. Generally they are moving against their will and out of their control. It can greatly agitate some people which is another good reason to keep things as light as possible.

What people miss is that they're looking at training. We're trying to get the maximum effect with the minimum effort and force.
Once you've got that, you can start working on making it more powerful, but until you do you're working on something else.

you'er right it is hard to "unpack misunderstanding". on line

Why would one bother




Everyone has their own practice.....
Did learn the Tung/Dong sets, slow, fast, weapon's ect...in my own path long ago...

Their method quite different from things I work with now....

[wayne hansen]

Fast forms is the wrong name
Combat forms is closer to the truth
They are fast because circles are smaller and more direct
They can be done both fast and slow
I do both Tung fast forms and they follow the sequence and directions of the 108
I should say did them as I have dropped them after teaching them to one of my students
I have enough fighting forms

[Steve James]

Anyway, here's an example from the Tian Zhaolin line. This time I'm more definite. The choreography is standard, but the performance is different -and that's how I know. Back in the 90s when Tian Zhaolin was discovered (by the online tcc community), a trip was arranged for his son (iinm) to visit the US. There were some videos of him doing the form, and they were very distinctive.


Sometimes it's possible to tell lineage by the way the practitioner does a particular (signature) movement. As in 'how does your snake creep down'?

[origami_itto]

Fast forms is the wrong name
Combat forms is closer to the truth

There's no "fast form", there's the Dong Yingjie form, aka family form, and there is the Fajin form

They are fast because circles are smaller and more direct
They can be done both fast and slow
I do both Tung fast forms and they follow the sequence and directions of the 108

The Fajin form has a constant speed with Fajin expressions and follows the 108 but the family form alternates between slow and fast and is a much different sequence. That's not even debatable. You can change which parts are fast and which are slow though.

If you do the Fajin form slow you're just doing the regular long form, there's nothing special about it.

One thing that irritates me about the curriculum is how confusing the form syllabus is. I can understand your confusion. They each have a specific role in the overall pedagogy. The hao form is where the power is, for example. There are pieces of it in the family form.

One thing I appreciate about my teacher is that he gets into the differences in the internals in those so there's less guesswork.

[windwalker]

Even the sequences in their form that are explicitly about punching and kicking are still done at a constant speed.

Not out to change minds, only offering what might be a different view point in an interesting conversation .

Depending on practice it's not thought of as a "function" but rather a shape..
Coordinated with the mind and body based on empty and full, open and close

The focus is on developing of what might be called an "internal" awareness.
Without which, none of the following can be done....

Now, in terms of science, any object, no matter what, it has both object and field parts.
We think of this field as Wuji.
The object itself is Youji.

When we talk about Taijiquan, we use Wuji to influence Youji, the Youji reflects itself back to Wuji.
This back-and-forth transition, in this case, we think that the transition is a particularly important aspect of Tai Chi. Yin and Yang, Xu and Shi{deficiency and reality} are two aspects of the same object. "


The speed that some seem to be looking for, is in the transition between empty and full....

[wayne hansen]

There has been a rebranding of a lot of Tung family stuff
New forms invented and new names given to old forms
I learnt the two fast over 30 years ago
There was no mention of Fa Jing form until recently

[ParadoxTeapot]

Whether something works martially or otherwise dependent on the practitioner no ?

I'd argue it depends on both the practitioner and the physical practice. The practitioner matters as they need to invest the time and hard work into it.

But physical practice also matters because you are what you train. If someone doesn't train in a set of skills because it doesn't exist in their curriculum, then that's not an issue with the practitioner. That's the issue with the art itself lacking that set of skills.

Not all physical practices cultivate useful things. You can invest a lot of time and hard work into something, but that something isn't necessarily useful.

[origami_itto]

[Trick]

YJ probably compare to amount of training todays hobbyists like for example you put in to it, then YCF probably did horse loads of training

See, y'all always want to take and make things personally with your nasty little snipy remarks.

Ha ! I wasn’t pointing to “you” specifically but to “you” whoever the reader, because most of us are Taiji hobbyists, even those here that consider themselves Taiji special .
Non of “you” can reach YCF’s skillful standards, you haven’t even done Taiji under the table……As much as you always want to take it there, don’t take it personally:)