Chen Taiji, why the hate?

[windwalker]

might help to explain the practices and theory of stick, connect, attach, and follow
from the point of contact...for those that can do it, or have experienced it.
They know already...

For those who have not it might help to answer a lot of the what, why not, or what if's


Master Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞) on Taiji Sticky Force

enable cc if you do not see the English subtitles

addresses the use of kicking

not practiced in the session, stressing the use of and understanding of foot work in accordance with the theory...

[wayne hansen]

I have yet to see an application in Chang tai chi that I wasn’t taught in Yang
Every step is a kick
Dark kicks are all the way thru tai chi
Walking 4 hands and Ta Lu are perfect examples

[salcanzonieri]

The reason the Shuai Jiao doesn't have joint locks and so on is a historical reason.

In the far past, Emperors sons (princes) used to enter Shuai Jiao tournaments and it was thus forbidden to hurt the opponent. The princes were incognito, so you never knew who was a prince or not.

Also, the art of Shuai Jiao was considered a sophisticated art of takedowns, and did not need joint locks etc. it was considered low class.

Most Northern CMA have Shui Jiao techniques incorporated into their style, which was high level. Lower level joint locks and so on were taught in middle level.
But the aspiration was to reach high level skill to use takedowns without grabbing (because your grab, they grab you, then you grab them again, and they grab you again, etc).
Very high level was to overcome opponent by evading them and letting them trap themselves (which tai chi is supposed to do?)
Its like this in old Shaolin, which has many influences from many other CMA arts, esp Shuai Jiao. You can see this in Japanese version of Shaolin (Shorinji kempo), which is less forms based and more takedowns based.

[wayne hansen]

Shorinji Kempo being Shaolin is a bit debatable
I like SK but it is a lot more Japanese than Chinese

[twocircles13]

The reason the Shuai Jiao doesn't have joint locks and so on is a historical reason.

In the far past, Emperors sons (princes) used to enter Shuai Jiao tournaments and it was thus forbidden to hurt the opponent. The princes were incognito, so you never knew who was a prince or not.

Also, the art of Shuai Jiao was considered a sophisticated art of takedowns, and did not need joint locks etc. it was considered low class.

Most Northern CMA have Shui Jiao techniques incorporated into their style, which was high level. Lower level joint locks and so on were taught in middle level.
But the aspiration was to reach high level skill to use takedowns without grabbing (because your grab, they grab you, then you grab them again, and they grab you again, etc).
Very high level was to overcome opponent by evading them and letting them trap themselves (which tai chi is supposed to do?)
Its like this in old Shaolin, which has many influences from many other CMA arts, esp Shuai Jiao. You can see this in Japanese version of Shaolin (Shorinji kempo), which is less forms based and more takedowns based.

Yes, you don’t have to go back too far in time to find the roots of Shuai Jiao. The Manchu Banners (armies) of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) each had “wrestling” traditions as part of their training curriculum. It was bad form to hurt fellow soldiers, and since banner membership was hereditary, you were often pitted against family members.

Two dynasties prior in the Yuan Dynasty, the Mongols had brought in Mongolian wrestling. It pervaded Chinese society as a form of entertainment from royal exhibitions to street matches. Like all sports, accidents happen, but there were consequences for the careless.

The Han (indigenous Chinese) peoples also had their own native form of wrestling in earlier dynasties.

So, Shuai jiao is both a recent development and has ancient roots, older than any extant martial art.

Martial art historians frequently point to “wrestling” as the origin of martial arts in China. While not utterly wrong in my opinion, it is more likely that martial arts emerged from weapon training. Wrestling, of course, was added as a competitive advantage in close combat situations.

That is certainly how the locks and takedowns are used in the Taijiquan traditions with which I am familiar.

[Trick]

The reason the Shuai Jiao doesn't have joint locks and so on is a historical reason.

In the far past, Emperors sons (princes) used to enter Shuai Jiao tournaments and it was thus forbidden to hurt the opponent. The princes were incognito, so you never knew who was a prince or not.

Also, the art of Shuai Jiao was considered a sophisticated art of takedowns, and did not need joint locks etc. it was considered low class.

Most Northern CMA have Shui Jiao techniques incorporated into their style, which was high level. Lower level joint locks and so on were taught in middle level.
But the aspiration was to reach high level skill to use takedowns without grabbing (because your grab, they grab you, then you grab them again, and they grab you again, etc).
Very high level was to overcome opponent by evading them and letting them trap themselves (which tai chi is supposed to do?)
Its like this in old Shaolin, which has many influences from many other CMA arts, esp Shuai Jiao. You can see this in Japanese version of Shaolin (Shorinji kempo), which is less forms based and more takedowns based.

So which one should it be - incognito royals or sophisticated wrestling ?

With the latter it actually resemble the traditional way of Glima - the Scandinavian/Viking style of wrestling were skill rather than brute force is intended.
Otherwise, wrestling was probably a good way to keep “soldiers” “combat” fit in a safe way(can’t have the soldiers crippled already before the battle)

Ok, the “incognito royals” thing could maybe work as keeping the wrestlers to not get carried away hotheaded and on stretchers

Japanese Shorinji-kempo being influenced by Shaolin boxing stretches only to Xinyiba, a major part of its joint locking/takedown curriculum is from traditional Japanese martial arts

[Bao]

Shuai jiao doesn't have joint locks because it's just a one-on-one sport where you score points on throwing each other. Simple as that.

[johnwang]

Shuai jiao doesn't have joint locks because it's just a one-on-one sport where you score points on throwing each other. Simple as that.

Joint locking is allowed to use in sport SC. In sport SC, you use

- head lock to lock your opponent's neck joint.
- under hook to lock your opponent's shoulder joint.
- over hook to lock your opponent's elbow joint.
- spine hook to lock your opponent's spine.

Example of under hook.



You can also use

- 崩(Beng) - Cracking,
- 肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing,

to force opponent to give up his grip.





If your opponent hangs on and refuses to release his grip, it can turn into a joint lock.

[BruceP]

John, do you and your guys do much work in long sleeves?

[johnwang]

John, do you and your guys do much work in long sleeves?

SC jacket is all short sleeves. SC doesn't train in long sleeves.

[Bao]

Joint locking is allowed to use in sport SC. In sport SC, you use

If your opponent hangs on and refuses to release his grip, it can turn into a joint lock.

Ok, thank you for correcting me. Maybe I confuse he rules... I guess jointlocks could be a part of "Maintaining control"

Maintaining control over your opponent, such as by holding them in a dominant position, may earn you points over time.

So I guess you either turn a jointlock into a throw or you just hold him there in place until the judge gets tired....

[johnwang]

I guess jointlocks could be a part of "Maintaining control" ...

Joint locking should also be part of the Taiji PH training too.

[wayne hansen]

Joint locking IS a part of tai chi pushing

[Giles]

Joint locking IS a part of tai chi pushing

Indeed. Putting them on as they present themselves, and also neutralising or reversing them. If both partners have sufficient experience and a good spirit then joint locking can be incorporated in free play, also a bit faster, in a pretty safe way. Lots of fun, too. Adds an extra dimension to the circles of attack and counter.

[twocircles13]

Joint locking IS a part of tai chi pushing

Yes, and it can get quite complex.

We often use the saying, “He who holds is held.” In other words, I know exactly where my opponent’s hands are and the direction(s) of his force. I can even learn to control him through his joint lock. Most joint locks are escapable or reversible or both, so when an opponent attempts joint lock, depending on what it is, we let them have it, and neutralize the effects of it. One of the lessons of push hands training is how to deal with qinna.

Chen Zhaokui was a big proponent of the qinna training in push hands. It was a way to train without damaging the opponent, and you learn to negate the qinna of others. It’s not the essence of push hands, but there are lots of important lessons in the training.

This is a video of still photos taken of Chen Zhaokui doing push hands with qinna in it.