dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
But, I agree that Chen staff, actually long pole training, appears to be long-spear training.
While not the same there are similarities with Six harmony Spear. There is also a Shaolin spear form called Six Harmony Spear, but although there are similarities, it is a different form.
I also trained Feng Mo Gun from the Wutan group.. There is a famous Shaolin staff form of the same name but they re not the same form, so they are more likely a parallel development. It and some other related Shaolin staff forms, are very different than anything I’ve seen associated with the Chen family. It is a true staff form, but a lot of the movements reminded me of two-handed long sword although there are a few spearlike movements too.
I couldn’t find the exact form on YouTube, but the Wutan Feng Mo Gun has more in common with Yecha Gun, although they are not the same form either. These are all true staff forms. Start at 0:50.
One of the Chen family signature forms is yanyuedao (偃月刀; lit. "reclining moon blade”), a type of Kwan dao. The famous painting of Chen Wanting and Jiang Fa pictures Jiang holding his “master’s” yanyuedao. It could be practiced with a staff.
One version of the Yang Luchan story passed down in our tradition says that after Yang confessed to Chen Changxing that he had been trying to learn the Chen family martial art. The village elders discussed the matter and with unrest fomenting, it was decided that Yang and two other servants who served in households without sons present would be trained in the family martial art.
Although the story is silent on the matter, it is reasonable that Yang would have also been trained in spear (long pole). A few years later, Yang had gone eventually to Beijing, and the Chen Village militia met and defeated forces of the Taiping Rebellion with their spears. Many of the family joined the Qing Army afterward. Much of this including military records were recorded by Chen Ziming (1931).https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/taiji-boxing-according-to-chen-ziming/
Last edited by twocircles13 on Sat May 04, 2024 2:07 am, edited 6 times in total.
Yang Luchan was already skilled in the spear and in Shaolin arts when he first visited the Chen village.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog) - Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert - To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
twocircles13 wrote:I have not trained in any Yang weaponry.
But, I agree that Chen staff, actually long pole training, appears to be long-spear training.
As a note, not all fajin expression expression is "explosive" "big" stomping and punching - in the spear and sword the fajin can be refined and expresses power from fully body utilization.
While not the same there are similarities with Six harmony Spear. There is also a Shaolin spear form called Six Harmony Spear, but although there are similarities, it is a different form.
I also trained Feng Mo Gun from the Wutan group.. There is a famous Shaolin staff form of the same name but they re not the same form, so they are more likely a parallel development. It and some other related Shaolin staff forms, are very different than anything I’ve seen associated with the Chen family. It is a true staff form, but a lot of the movements reminded me of two-handed long sword although there are a few spearlike movements too.
I couldn’t find the exact form on YouTube, but the Wutan Feng Mo Gun has more in common with Yecha Gun, although they are not the same form either. These are all true staff forms. Start at 0:50.
One of the Chen family signature forms is yanyuedao (偃月刀; lit. "reclining moon blade”), a type of Kwan dao. The famous painting of Chen Wanting and Jiang Fa pictures Jiang holding his “master’s” yanyuedao. It could be practiced with a staff.
One version of the Yang Luchan story passed down in our tradition says that after Yang confessed to Chen Changxing that he had been trying to learn the Chen family martial art. The village elders discussed the matter and with unrest fomenting, it was decided that Yang and two other servants who served in households without sons present would be trained in the family martial art.
Although the story is silent on the matter, it is reasonable that Yang would have also been trained in spear (long pole). A few years later, Yang had gone eventually to Beijing, and the Chen Village militia met and defeated forces of the Taiping Rebellion with their spears. Many of the family joined the Qing Army afterward. Much of this including military records were recorded by Chen Ziming (1931).https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/taiji-boxing-according-to-chen-ziming/
The entire clip illustrates the way many Wutan(g) schools learn forms and weapons
瘋魔棍」Feng Mo (Crazy Demon) Staff WuTan NJ + BajiShu
The name of the "Crazy Demon Stick" in the martial arts world is "Feng Mo Stick", because its flavor is characterized by its wide opening and closing, wild and uninhibited swing, and free sweeping. Repeatedly "beat a piece with a stick" (which is a popular martial proverb along with "prick a piece with a spear") before and after sweeping, it is like a windmill grinding mills or drawing water. I don’t know when and who started writing it as "Crazy Devil Stick"?
WuTan “Crazy Demon” Staff originally was called “Windmill Grinder Staff”, due to its open and wide circular strokes, in all directions. Resembles a windmill and the solid consistent power of a grinder. Not sure since when it was changed to “Crazy Demon” (the two pronounces the same in Chinese).
Last edited by Bob on Sat May 04, 2024 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bao wrote:Yang Luchan was already skilled in the spear and in Shaolin arts when he first visited the Chen village.
I have read that Yang Luchan was proficient in Shaolin martial arts. I had not heard he had any staff skills, but Yang history is only a peripheral interest.
To make his timeline and ages work, Yang style researchers, estimate Yang Luchan was likely 10 to 15 years old when he went to Chen Village. I guess it’s feasible he could have studied Shaolin and staff and done physical labor all day as part of the servant class.
瘋魔棍」Feng Mo (Crazy Demon) Staff WuTan NJ + BajiShu
The name of the "Crazy Demon Stick" in the martial arts world is "Feng Mo Stick", because its flavor is characterized by its wide opening and closing, wild and uninhibited swing, and free sweeping. Repeatedly "beat a piece with a stick" (which is a popular martial proverb along with "prick a piece with a spear") before and after sweeping, it is like a windmill grinding mills or drawing water. I don’t know when and who started writing it as "Crazy Devil Stick"?
WuTan “Crazy Demon” Staff originally was called “Windmill Grinder Staff”, due to its open and wide circular strokes, in all directions. Resembles a windmill and the solid consistent power of a grinder. Not sure since when it was changed to “Crazy Demon” (the two pronounces the same in Chinese).
That’s the one I studied. I can’t say that I ever became proficient, but I’ve always really liked this staff form. I did not know that it was also called Windmill Grinder Staff. That’s a great piece of information.
And, to my original point, it’s very different from long pole and spear, which are similar.
Last edited by twocircles13 on Sat May 04, 2024 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
twocircles13 wrote: I guess it’s feasible he could have studied Shaolin and staff and done physical labor all day as part of the servant class.
Oh my... here we go again... Yang Luchan was NEVER a servant. The myth was invented through a fiction novel, it's a fairytale. You won't find this myth in any of the earlier Tai Chi books, a proof in itself that it's just a fake story.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog) - Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert - To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
twocircles13 wrote: I guess it’s feasible he could have studied Shaolin and staff and done physical labor all day as part of the servant class.
Oh my... here we go again... Yang Luchan was NEVER a servant. The myth was invented through a fiction novel, it's a fairytale. You won't find this myth in any of the earlier Tai Chi books, a proof in itself that it's just a fake story.
See, there's the problem, too many wild stories, who knows what the truth is.
"the myth was invented " "who knows what the truth is."
These people might.
He saw that Yang Lu Chan came from the heart and was eager to study and sent Yang Lu Chan to the Chen Village to seek the 14th generation of the Chen Family Chen Chang Xing as his teacher.
mmm, maybe he didn't "work" as a servant
Wonder what kind of job he did before being accepted as a student.... or was he accepted at the first meeting...
In Korea, learned a n-mantis staff set, used to use a metal weight bar to practice it with,,,about 10lb or so in weight...Someone watching at the time, a GI thought they could do it...very funny as they caught the what looked like a black staff, finding out it wasn't
Did learn another set while training in HI in what was tung/dung based taiji at the time we worked with what looked like cut off "Wooden Oar" handles....also a little heavy...
not our practice / example of dong/tung style work
That’s the 4 sticky spear and the 4 springy spear That is not a Tung thing it comes directly from YCF Good to see the Tung family are still teaching it
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
twocircles13 wrote: I guess it’s feasible he could have studied Shaolin and staff and done physical labor all day as part of the servant class.
Oh my... here we go again... Yang Luchan was NEVER a servant. The myth was invented through a fiction novel, it's a fairytale. You won't find this myth in any of the earlier Tai Chi books, a proof in itself that it's just a fake story.
I have no stake in it either way, just passing’s on what has been conveyed to me.
Chen Dehu travelled between the Chen Village and his pharmacy fairly regularly. And the Chen family stories imply it was Chen Dehu’s household in which Yang Luchan served. When Chen Dehu died, because he left a widow of an age with Yang, it was inappropriate for him to live in the same house. He was allowed to leave the Chen Village.
This indicates to me that there was no bond of slavery, which could have been simply passed to another Chen family member in the Village. We can speculate somewhat what the arrangement might have been, employee, indentured servant whose indenture dissolved on Dehu’s death. It is not clear.
Of course, GrahamB’s partner in the Heretics podcast, Damon Smith, claims it’s all a fairytale. Not only was Yang Luchan not a servant, he never went to the Chen Village nor studied with Chen Changxing. I think there is more than a little evidence against the theory including the form itself.
One irony of the stories is that while Chen Changxing, although skilled and experienced, had students, but he only had a handful. The primary teacher in the Village was Chen Youben, who had dozens of students. I think it likely that Yang Luchan actually studied with both, especially if Chen Changxing was not fully retired from his caravan escorting business. Evidence for this again is the Yang form itself, which has a lot of characteristics of Chen Youben’s form.
Last edited by twocircles13 on Mon May 06, 2024 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Founder: Yang Lu-ch' an There are two major versions of Yang Lu-ch' an's background - one "official" and the other probably historical. The "official" version emanates from col- leagues and students who may have wished to conceal his humble origins. Hsii Yii-sheng, student of Lu-ch'an's son, Chien-hou (1839-1917), and author of Illustrated Manual of T'ai-chi Ch'iian (T'ai-chi ch'i.ian shih t 'u-chieh) published in 1921, says that Lu-ch'an along with fellow Yung-nien villager, Li Po-k'uei, on hearing of Ch' en Ch' ang-hsing' s fame as a martial artist, made haste to Ch' en Village to study with him. Initially regarded as outsiders, they won over the master by sheer determination and finally gained the complete transmission, whereupon they returned to Yung-nien. Lu-ch' an later traveled to Peking, where he became martial arts tutor to the Manchu nobility.3 Ch'en Wei- ming, student of Lu-ch' an's grandson, Ch' eng-fu, in his 1925 Art of Tai-chi Chiian (T' ai-chi ch' iian shu) closely follows Hsii's account, adding a few embellishments. Ch'en tells us that after arriving in Ch'en Village, Yang heard loud sounds issuing from a nearby build- ing. Climbing a wall, he poked a hole in a window and spied Ch' ang-hsing giving instruction in uproot- ing. By nightly surveillance he learned all the secrets, and when the master finally consented to accept him as a student, he made such rapid progress that he soon surpassed even the Ch'en family favorites.4 Thus Yang Ch' eng-fu' s preface to his 1934 Complete Principles and Applications of T'ai-chi Ch'iian (T'ai-chi ch'iian t'i-yung ch'iian-shu), probably ghost-written by Cheng Man- ch'ing,5 contains biographical information about the Yang family, that not only respectfully glosses over Lu-ch'an's background, but puts in the illiterate 19th century Lu-ch' an's mouth the world view and political agenda of the early 20th century conservative intelli- gentsia, even fabricating an anachronistic dialogue between Ch'eng-fu and his grandfather, Lu-ch'an, who actually died eleven years before his grandson's birth. Ch'eng-fu's account here, or more likely that of his ghost-writer, has Lu-ch' an traveling to Ch' en Village as a adult on the strength of Ch'ang-hsing's reputation, and remaining for ten years before being accepted as a student.6 Ch'en Kung's 1943 T'ai-chi Hand Form, Broadsword, Two-Edged Sword, Spear and Sparring (T' ai- chi ch'iian tao chien kan san-shou ho-pien) is a remake of Ch'en Wei-ming's account, except that he has Lu- ch' an going to Ch' en Village as a young boy and making a hole in the wall, that he claims could still be seen in the 1940's. 7 Even the great martial arts scholar, Hsii Chen, fell under the spell of Yang family well-wishers in his 1930 Summary of Chinese Martial Arts (Kuo-chi lun-yiieh), uncritically reproducing Hsii Yii-sheng's account.8 However, just six years later in his A Study of the Truth of T'ai-chi Ch'iian (T'ai-chi ch'iian k'ao-hsin lu) Hsii Chen finally breaks the taboo. It was Hsii whose teacher, Hao Yiieh-ju, first showed him Li 1-yii's handwritten copies of Wu Yii-hsiang's manuscripts. Noting that Li's "Short Preface to T'ai-chi Ch'iian" (T'ai-chi ch'iian hsiao-hsii) referred to Yang Lu-ch'an as "a certain Yang of Nan-kuan," Hsii resolved to examine the reason for this circumlocution. After interviewing the older generation of martial a rts enthusiasts in Yung-nien, Ch'en Village, and Peking, he discovered that the Ch'en family owned a pharmacy in Yung-nien, the Hall of Great Harmony (T' ai-ho t' ang). The proprietor of the pharmacy, Ch'en Te-hu, was one of the richest men in Ch'en Village and he hired one of his clans- men, Ch'en Ch'ang-hsing, to teach his sons the martial arts. After many years of waiting on Ch' ang-hsing, Lu-ch'an absorbed much of the art, and when he began to prompt Ch' ang-hsing' s students, the master was so impressed that he not only transmitted the art to him but bought his freedom for fifty ounces of sil- ver and returned him to Yung-nien. Back in Yung-nien, Lu-ch'an stayed in the Ch'en family Hall of Harmony Pharmacy, whose local landlord was Wu Yii-hsiang and his two brothers. The Wu brothers were a prominent gentry family in Yung-nien, and keenly interested in the martial arts. Breaking class barriers, Yii-hsiang studied with Lu-ch' an, which whetted his appetite to seek out Lu-ch'an's teacher, Ch'en Ch'ang-hsing. On his way to Ch'en Village, Yii-hsiang passed through nearby Chao-pao Village, where the local innkeeper, who coveted Yii-hsiang's room and board, told him that Ch'en Ch'ing-p'ing was superior to Ch'ang-hsing and persuaded him to stay in Chao-pao. Hsii concludes that Li 1-yii in his "Short Preface" attempted to protect the reputation of the Wu family by not revealing the fact that his uncle, Yii-hsiang, was initiated into t' ai-chi by a man so poor he had been sold as a bond servant.
Douglas Wile, Tai chi touchstones: Yang family secret transmissions
Thanks for posting- That’s one book I will not buy.
Apparently there are revised editions of that book, so it seem the author has flawed from time to time in his writings ? He seem to write a lot of “filler” writing unrelated to the book title.
Trick wrote:Apparently there are revised editions of that book, so it seem the author has flawed from time to time in his writings ? He seem to write a lot of “filler” writing unrelated to the book title.
Read the article from the link i posted above Ittos post from the same author.
here we go again... 
Yang Luchan was NEVER a servant. The myth was invented through a fiction novel, it's a fairytale. You won't find this myth in any of the earlier Tai Chi books, a proof in itself that it's just a fake story.
