Yang family

[windwalker]

adding a feather



立如平準

一羽不能加，蠅虫不能落

"Stand as stable as a balance ; not a feather can be added, not a fly can land."

[D_Glenn]

That does not make sense
One is being added one taken away
Yin/yang
Might as well say 2 flies or two feathers
They are both being added

Alight and land are synonyms. They basically mean the same thing. Alight is just a bird perching or landing on something.
I just hate the word ‘alight’, that’s why I prefer the second. And I think this phrase occurs in two different classics.

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Understand that those are english words.

羽 (yǔ) - Feather
不能 (bù néng) - Cannot
加 (jiā) - Add
蠅 (yíng) - Fly
蟲 (chóng) - Insect
不能 (bù néng) - Cannot
落 (luò) - Fall


加 (jiā) - Add - to add / plus / (used after an adverb such as 不, 大, 稍 etc, and before a disyllabic verb, to indicate that the action of the verb is applied to sth or sb previously mentioned) / to apply (restrictions etc) to (sb) / to give (support, consideration etc) to (sth)
落 (luò) - Fall - to fall or drop / (of the sun) to set / (of a tide) to go out / to lower / to decline or sink / to lag or fall behind / to fall onto / to rest with / to get or receive / to write down / whereabouts / settlement

So Wayne is right, stylistically at least, one word is adding and the other is taking away, even if they are both referring to an increase in OUR mass.

Or does the "fall" refer to the fly LEAVING? Like the proverbial sparrow in the palm?

It’s a statement that is expressing how a feather cannot land on your arm, nor can a fly land on your arm. Because your awareness of your surroundings is so strong.

Maybe, Wayne is thinking this applies to Sticking and Adhering or something along those lines?

[Steve James]

It’s a statement that is expressing how a feather cannot land on your arm, nor can a fly land on your arm. Because your awareness of your surroundings is so strong.

Well, it does apply to sticking, adhering, and "touch" in general. Wang's "Treatise" is largely based on acquiring the skill of touch in order to "understand" jin. Imo, it's true that it's about using all the senses, (like sight and sound) and would include awareness of one's surroundings. But, ime and ymmv, I don't know how strong, fast, or sensitive someone is until contact. Of course, even after contact, people can be deceptive.

Anyway, the fly and feather phrases are metaphors like 4oz v 1000lbs which are about how much force it takes to move something. For ex., what should happen when a feather lands on your right shoulder? If the answer is nothing, then what would happen if the feather weighed a half-ton?

[origami_itto]

【解】練功旣久。感覺靈敏。稍有接觸。卽能感覺而應之。一羽毛之輕。我亦不䭾。蠅蟲之小。亦不能落我身。蠅蟲附我身。如著落琉璃瓶。光滑不能立足。蓋我以微妙之化力將蠅蟲足分蹉也。能如此則太極之功成矣。昔班侯老師於夏日行功時。常臥樹蔭下休息。偶或風吹葉落其身上。隨落隨脫滑落地。不能停留。又常試己功。解襟仰臥榻上。捻金米「卽小米」少許置臍上。但呼一聲。小米猶彈弓射彈丸。飛射屋頂瓦面，班侯老師之功誠不可及。同志宜勉之。
Once you have worked at it for a long time, your sensitivity will be acute. When there is the smallest contact, you will be aware of it. You will not carry something even as light as a feather, and something as small as a fly will not be able to land on you. When a fly lands inside a glass vase, the surface is too smooth for it to gain any footing, and likewise when you use the subtlety of neutralizing energy, making the fly’s feet slip instead of grip. At this stage you can consider your Taiji skill complete. There is an old anecdote about Yang Banhou to illustrate this:
　　When practicing in the peak of summer, Yang would often lie down in the shade from a tree to take a rest. One day a breeze took a leaf off and it fell onto his body, but it could not stay on him and slipped off onto the ground.
　　[Another anecdote:]
　　Yang would often measure his skill by unbuttoning his jacket and lying back on his bed with a handful of yellow grain (i.e. millet) and put a few of the grains on his navel, and then with a shout it seemed the grains had been shot from a pellet bow and flew up to hit the tile-roofed ceiling.
　　Yang Banhou’s skill could be considered to be at the summit and you all should emulate him.

[D_Glenn]

Ting Jin (and Dong Jin) are btdt topics. I think everything on the topic has been covered pretty well in this thread and the previous threads on the topic- https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29739&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=de062e6ddb8f5e2b424932a464f897d5

But I did just remember another example of Dong Jin outside of martial arts is seen in professional Table Tennis players. You could even say that they got to that level by first passing through their Listening phase, where they learned how the ball interacts with the paddle and table, and how to add english to it. Over time it progressed beyond that to Knowing. Now imagine a martial artist moving that fast and with both the agility and precision of the professional Table Tennis player. Which also requires Shen Ji Cong Ren, only in this case instead of Ren (the other person) it’s the ball. Everything is happening before contact just like Dongjin can do. But of course it also works after contact, wherein you know where the opponent’s body is in relative space. Where is their supporting arm, where are their feet, where can they possibly step to, etc. Now I, myself, am not even near this level of skill but I study with a teacher who has been at this level since I first met him. I’ve felt it enough times that I know it’s something tangible, and something that can be achieved by ordinary people, under the right circumstances.

[D_Glenn]

　　[Another anecdote:]
　　Yang would often measure his skill by unbuttoning his jacket and lying back on his bed with a handful of yellow grain (i.e. millet) and put a few of the grains on his navel, and then with a shout it seemed the grains had been shot from a pellet bow and flew up to hit the tile-roofed ceiling.

That’s Fali- a Dantian strike. My teacher used to practice ground fighting defense and he could use his Dantian strikes to great effect when someone was on top of him.
A Fali can be done with a Ha (a shout expressed through the mouth) but normally it’s done with a Hen sound (a nearly inaudible sound with the air coming out of one’s nostrils.

[windwalker]

, what should happen when a feather lands on your right shoulder? If the answer is nothing, then what would happen if the feather weighed a half-ton?

Nothing

It’s dynamic , The level of sensitivity is such that one never receives more than 4 ounces or uses more than 4 ounces .


The real question is what is one sensitive to. It’s not about the weight

This may be confusing for some .

[Steve James]

The real question is what is one sensitive to. It’s not about the weight

Obviously. I thought you'd see that.

[windwalker]

The real question is what is one sensitive to. It’s not about the weight

Obviously. I thought you'd see that.

Others may not.

Just as others may not see the answer as to why there is no grabbing or joint locks in some methods of taiji
Not really possible to do so. One Comes to an understanding of this through direct practice .

[wayne hansen]

I don’t like the word grabbing but to seize or lock should use the same energy as anything in tai chi
It need not be hard
Where a joint lock gets to the point of hardness it should change to something else

[wayne hansen]

Fall as translated means the same as alright to get off
Disembark is another word we can use
We take away weight in this case the finest amount we can imagine
As with a feather landing
This goes along with the bird trying to leave the hand analogy or the silk being ripped in the sword fight

[Bao]

First you have to listen to your own body before you can understand it. First you have to listen to other people’s body’s before you can understand them.
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Perfectly true. We also translate the knowledge about ourselves to knowledge about the opponent and vice versa.

[johnwang]

I don’t like the word grabbing but to seize or lock should use the same energy as anything in tai chi ...

You may not like grabbing, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you. Can you push your opponent away when he has a solid grip on you?

The more that we talk about "push", the more that "push" seems to be a kid's game that has no combat value at all.

What's the Taiji solution for this?

[origami_itto]

If they grab you can use that contact to control them as easily as they can use it to control you.

Push hands is a poor name for the practice. It's about controlling them on contact.

[johnwang]

If they grab you can use that contact to control them as easily as they can use it to control you.

Push hands is a poor name for the practice. It's about controlling them on contact.

If you don't train grabbing in push hand, when do you train that? People always say PH only trains a certain skill. But how about the other skills such as a

- grab on the wrist,
- punch to the face,
- kick to the chest?

Do we treat Taiji as a fighting art or not?