Chen Taiji, why the hate?

[ctjla]

Chen Xiaowang didn't event want to train but the government made him to preserve the lineage.

I didn’t realize that the communists were interested in promoting Taiji way back around 1952. I thought they were in the business of persecuting martial artists during those years. I learn something new everyday.

That would have made him 7 or 8 years old? Not sure I said this happened when he was a child.

Slightly off topic but hope nobody is thinking that those Wushu adjacent forms while in elementary school are some sort of guarantee of mastery. Have you ever taught a kid's martial arts class? And wasn't their period of time where every 7 year old in China did some kind of MA in school. Why aren't they all high ticket, seminar filling revenue machines?

Or...he was just another kid, not that interested or talented, but after he gets a little older -- has the name and knows enough to get govt provided sponsorship and training to become a representative of what's considered a cultural treasure.


Those stories of starting at an early age, running through endless yilu reps and emerging an invincible sort of super saiyan master are romantic though.

[ctjla]

How is the name brand marketing and teaching of the Chen Style TCC essentially any different from how other family styles of gungfu promote themselves? And does it really matter? Again, the content of the curriculum is of greater importance than what you call it.

Agree completely, hoping that as a semi-responsible consumer I'll keep an eye on the content of the curriculum and not just the brand marketing.

I don't have enough time or money to just buy the brand.

[wayne hansen]

I am sure when I trained with CZW in 88 we were the same age 38
Might be just my failing memory
He is much older now

[Trick]

I am sure when I trained with CZW in 88 we were the same age 38
Might be just my failing memory
He is much older now

You probably started training around same time too ? Did you get a chance to “test” him ?

[wayne hansen]

Not on my mind
Happy to be training with him
I could tell a very funny story but people here would say I'm lying

[Trick]

Not on my mind
Happy to be training with him
I could tell a very funny story but people here would say I'm lying

“Test” was a wrong word, but did you get chance to feel - Many on here say that only way to learn is by - “four hands” - did you get that chance ?

[wayne hansen]

Honestly I don't remember
I don't think he was working with anyone there
Just teaching

[Urs Krebs]

And thanks for the sarcasm in your first response on this (sub)topic, appreciate the self-identification. BTW, who is She Xingbao and what is your issue with him? If he knew about Feng's training of CXW, he's obviously more in the know than well, you.

You're welcome. Wasn't my first post in this thread though. Shi Xingbao is a czech guy who had to say it polite very unique ideas of historical facts several years ago in different discussion forums.

I also was surprised about your claims about Chen Zhenglei. I know Chen Zhenglei since the early 90s. He was always kind, shared his knowledge and i never had the feeling it's about money. He's not my Shifu, but on some occasions in the 90s i also learned from him. So i'm wondering how you came to this conclusions after 10 years learning from him (directly or through one of his disciples?).

[twocircles13]

Here are some observations that might lend perspective to some of the accounts that have been posted.

If you remember your Chinese history, there was an extreme famine in China in the 1960s. Many living in the Chen Village fled to Xi’an, where many also had gone in during WWII. It is a natural and historic refuge for people in the region. When the crises were over, some stayed in Xi’an and some went back to the Chen Village.

When Chen Zhaopi talked about the family art not being taught in the village and dying out, he was talking about his branch (dajia, large circle) of the art. Accounts by his students, including some of the Four Tigers, said there were plenty of “old men and young children” practicing Xiaojia (small frame). So, Chen Zhaopi’s sacrifices were to restore large frame to the Village. This was also several years after the shocking, untimely death of Chen Fake's heir apparent, Chen Xiaowang’s father, Chen Zhaoxu in 1959.

Some time following Chen Zhaokui’s death in 1981, Chen Xiaowang famously went to all of the living disciples of Chen Fake. He had some specific questions he wanted answered, but if they answered in a way that was counter to his thinking, he mentally dismissed that disciple.

He met with Feng Zhiqiang who was devoted to helping the restore Chen Fake’s art to the Chen Village. Years later, Chen Xiaowang made some unilateral decisions and went behind Feng's back to accomplish them. This made Feng lose face and caused angry words and a schism between the two. Chen denounced Feng and Feng started his own branch, Hunyuan Taijiquan.

I think it is important to remember also that there is not private ownership in China. Everything is owned by the People (government). The government either leases property to individuals or groups or contracts the use of property based on your doing certain things. For example, invest X amount to improve the property over Y number of years.

[ctjla]

And thanks for the sarcasm in your first response on this (sub)topic, appreciate the self-identification. BTW, who is She Xingbao and what is your issue with him? If he knew about Feng's training of CXW, he's obviously more in the know than well, you.

You're welcome. Wasn't my first post in this thread though. Shi Xingbao is a czech guy who had to say it polite very unique ideas of historical facts several years ago in different discussion forums.

I also was surprised about your claims about Chen Zhenglei. I know Chen Zhenglei since the early 90s. He was always kind, shared his knowledge and i never had the feeling it's about money. He's not my Shifu, but on some occasions in the 90s i also learned from him. So i'm wondering how you came to this conclusions after 10 years learning from him (directly or through one of his disciples?).

It looks like I have triggered Urs Krebs enough to look at my scant, out of date profile. Wonder what the button was or if he just really cares about the internet.

Just because I want to respond (who knows why), I'll wrap a date around the context. I got most of my info during an early 90s visit to Beijng where I was lucky enough to spend time round both Feng and Liu Jingru. I was a bit of a novelty at the time because there was a shortage of foreigners available as adversaries for low budget wuxia films. Only thing that matters is that you get a lot more info being in the training halls and film studios everyday as opposed to occasional seminars and extended training vacations. And these things were much more conversational topics in China, 30 something years ago as opposed to present day on the internet with a bunch of people who weren't there trying to piece together what happened.

[ctjla]

Wasn't my first post in this thread though.

That's why I said (sub)topic, you know with parentheses, like part of a topic. Really, if you're going to be this nitpicky you gotta work that reading comprehension.

Just trying to help.


Me, I would ask some questions instead of leading with sarcasm.


Amd since we've downgraded to looking at profiles, I did notice that you trained with Wang XIan. Sorry to hear about his passing and while it's rumored that the rest of the four tigers were not that fond of him because of his previous occupation, nobody doubted that he could inflict pain once he got a hold of them.

This is why I don't go on the internet.

[ctjla]

Here’s some observations that might lend perspective to some of the accounts that have been posted.

If you remember your Chinese history, there was an extreme famine in China in the 1960s. Many living in the Chen Village fled to Xi’an, where many also had gone in during WWII. It is a natural and historic refuge for people in the region. When the crises were over, some stayed in Xi’an and some went back to the Chen Village.

When Chen Zhaopi talked about the family art not being taught in the village and dying out, he is talking about his branch (dajia, large circle) of the art. Accounts by his students, including some of the Four Tigers, say there were plenty of “old men and young children” practicing Xiaojia (small frame). So, Chen Zhaopi’s sacrifices were to restore large frame to the Village. This was also several years after the shocking, untimely death of Chen Fake's heir apparent, Chen Xiaowang’s father, Chen Zhaoxu in 1959.

Some time following Chen Zhaokui’s death in 1981, Chen Xiaowang famously went to all of the living disciples of Chen Fake. He had some specific questions he wanted answered, but if they answered in a way that was counter to his thinking, he mentally dismissed that disciple.

He met with Feng Zhiqiang who was devoted to helping the restore Chen Fake’s art to the Chen Village. Years later, Chen Xiaowang made some unilateral decisions and went behind Feng's back to accomplish them. This made Feng lose face and caused angry words and a schism between the two. Chen denounced Feng and Feng started his own branch, Hunyuan Taijiquan.

I think it is important to remember also that there is not private ownership in China. Everything is owned by the People (government). The government either leases property to individuals or groups or contracts the use of property based on your doing certain things. For example, invest X amount to improve the property over Y number of years.

Yes, this lines up exactly with the conversations I was around. Nice write up btw, I feel like twocircles13 just raised the collective IQ on the thread.

Only thing I might add is that it may not have really been CXW's idea or desire to go collect all of this info. Seems there may have been some prodding and incentives.

[twocircles13]

Only thing I might add is that it may not have really been CXW's idea or desire to go collect all of this info. Seems there may have been some prodding and incentives.

That would explain some things. I only have accounts through Hong and Feng, so they are one-sided stories.

Hong Junsheng thought Chen Xiaowang acted strange when he visited. Chen Fake and his family had lived with Hong for several years, and their children had played together. Years later, Hong's family had to live with Chen Fake's, so the families were well acquainted. Chen Xiaowang mainly wanted to talk about that and not taijiquan. I sort of understand that Chen might have wanted to hear about the father who died when he was 14 and the grandfather he didn’t remember.

Chen did ask if Hong had ever heard of Chansi Gong. Hong replied, "No, there’s chansi jin, but I’ve never heard of Chansi Gong. Show me what you are talking about.” Chen demonstrated. Hong laughed and said, “That’s just part of the jibengong students have to learn before they learn anything else.” Chen asked a few other questions. Hong replied with one of his favorite sayings, “Black horse or white horse [why debate?] let’s take it for a ride,” offering to push hands with him to show him and explain his answer, and Chen Xiaowang started making excuses, eventually ending on you are so old and feeble I am afraid I might hurt you, essentially an insult. This to the man who was known throughout Jinan as "the old man in the park that no one can beat."

Chen Xiaowang was later teaching Chansi Gong claiming it was the secret key to Taijiquan given only to the Four Tigers and no one else. He had asked all of Chen Fake’s students and no one had heard of it.

Hong said of it, “Well, I did say No, I had not heard the name. He did not hear what he wanted to and didn’t listen. His grandfather and father would be very disappointed in such behavior.”

If Chen Xiaowang had been reluctant and coerced in some way, that might account for his behavior a little better. His trip was so “they" could claim that he was the Standard Bearer, not because he really wanted to glean information or skills from his grandfather’s students. I had also wondered why he did not take any of his cousins with him.

That might also be part of why Chen Xiaowang now lives in Australia.

Thanks for the perspective. I wonder whose baby the idea of martial tourism was.

[Urs Krebs]

Wasn't my first post in this thread though.

Me, I would ask some questions instead of leading with sarcasm.


Amd since we've downgraded to looking at profiles, I did notice that you trained with Wang XIan. Sorry to hear about his passing and while it's rumored that the rest of the four tigers were not that fond of him because of his previous occupation, nobody doubted that he could inflict pain once he got a hold of them.

This is why I don't go on the internet.

Well, after went through about 10 pages of Village bashing (generalization! f.e. CXW is not the village, just one person) it leads to sarcasm, at least in my case. Maybe your posts were just the valve.

Thanks for the condolences about my masters passing.

[Appledog]

Why aren't they all high ticket, seminar filling revenue machines?

You have to want to do it or it doesn't work. This is the problem with kids classes. You can try and make it exciting and colorful but you are only prolonging the inevitable. Your only hope is that they learn to like it because it reinforces their self-esteem. Nobody "wants" to learn martial arts anymore. I did actually find one kid who is really into it and really wants to learn but the parents aren't very serious about paying for lessons.

Those stories of starting at an early age, running through endless yilu reps and emerging an invincible sort of super saiyan master are romantic though.

Did you ever try to do this? There were several times in my life where I was able to train 4+ hours a day for months at a time, and during those times I quickly eclipsed everyone around me. If it wasn't for those experiences I wouldn't be at the place where I am now. I had some experiences, I had some times, but even with what I was able to learn and the time I had, I didn't really get what I wanted. However, I did train enough to realize why I didn't get what I wanted, it was because I didn't train enough.

I'm sure if I could just add another four hours to my training schedule each day that everything would be okay. And so I cannot believe someone like CXW is in any kind of poor position, I mean I don't know the guy, but I really don't get it. I would do anything for just a little bit more money so I could quit my day job and just do kung fu. And some people have it on a silver platter and don't want to train? Does this make sense to anyone?