Taiji form training speed

[twocircles13]

This seems to be a hot topic.

While the breath is important including crevices in the breath, we were taught breath training. Then, we were told to never again think about the breath, except when doing breath training. Let the body be natural and let the breath take care of itself. If you think about breathing while doing Taijiquan, especially applications, the timing of the breath will be a little off, and it will not be as effective, if at all.

I don't believe we can breathe any way that we prefer. Will you end single whip with inhale? I believe everybody will end single whip with exhale.

That is actually the opposite of what I said. "Being natural and let the breath take care of itself” is not random. The brain and the body’s nervous system knows what it needs to do to maximize effect.

So, we practice different breathing methods in breath practice to teach the body what is available to it and to strengthen the neurological connections and patterns. However, in the form and more importantly in application, we let the body choose which breath pattern works best.

If you try to impose a breathing pattern your conscious mind thinks “should” be used, it could be wrong, and virtually always the timing will be off.

We see this a lot in all kinds of athletes. Baseball and softball pitchers are a great example. Many of them grunt or bark with an exhalation of breath as they pitch. If you ask them about it, they won’t know what you're talking about. If you show them videos, they’ll be surprised. If you try catch them how to best use their breath, you will mess up their timing.

But, that is just me seeing a confirmation of what I was taught coming down from Chen Fake. Train the breath, but let the body take care of breathing as you do the form and application. It will know what to do.

[origami_itto]

The question isn't when, it's what. What is compressing and releasing? Why not keep it?

[johnwang]

The question isn't when, it's what. What is compressing and releasing? Why not keep it?

Not sure what you mean "keep it". You can't keep your compress forever.

Let's use the "cross" as one example.

Compress - when you punch, your back leg bend first. Your back leg then steps on the ground, borrows the counter force from the ground.
Release - Your back leg is complete straight. The power generated from your back leg, go through your hip, spine, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your fist.

[Graculus]

Twocircles13 aligns with my own experience in Chen in that the breath should be left to take care of itself. In fact, students were specifically told not to link breathing with movement whenever this was observed. There were specific uses for breathing, but these were rarely taught and were seen as refinements of specific techniques.

There are those who view reverse breathing as the (hidden) key to the kind of internal power that Taiji aims to produce, but even in this case, the role of breathing seems to basically be a means of developing the functionality of the (martial) dan tian.

For those that do link the breathing directly to the movements, what kind of benefit does this have when it comes to using the same movements more quickly or for doing techniques in a more unstructured way? Sure you can breath out when you strike but what if you miss and have to follow up? Presumably you don’t have to breath in and then out to match those movements.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[johnwang]

For those that do link the breathing directly to the movements, what kind of benefit does this have when it comes to using the same movements more quickly or for doing techniques in a more unstructured way?

I believe the constant speed Taiji training is designed for beginners. It helps to develop the "body unification - unify breathing with body movement". There is more advance training after that.

[wayne hansen]

In the Yang form there is a reason there is only one change of speed and one change of height

[johnwang]

In the Yang form there is a reason there is only one change of speed and one change of height

Never let any MA style to put restriction on yourself. If there is a $100 bill on the ground, even a Taiji master will bend down to pick it up.

[origami_itto]

The question isn't when, it's what. What is compressing and releasing? Why not keep it?

Not sure what you mean "keep it". You can't keep your compress forever.

Let's use the "cross" as one example.

Compress - when you punch, your back leg bend first. Your back leg then steps on the ground, borrows the counter force from the ground.
Release - Your back leg is complete straight. The power generated from your back leg, go through your hip, spine, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your fist.

I'm talking about Taijiquan, not whatever that is.

You uncompress one thing to compress something else. That way you can keep using the same energy to make force and do the work of moving your body. It's like filling a cup with water and pouring it into another and then back. Sure there might be some spillage but you can do that for a long time without needing to add much more, if any.

Most Taijiquan form training should be mobilizing the Jin, not releasing it. That doesn't make sense to you so you throw it out along with everything that hangs on it.

So let's say this. You stand in a state of dynamic tension between antagonistic muscle pairs. Usually we only think about one, bicep curls, for example, but the bicep curl also involves the antagonistic opposite muscle the triceps, regulating the tension between them accomplishes the curl.

So in proper mobilization, aka silk reeling, we're passively regulating that tension to move the body, adding as little as possible, harnessing gravity and conserving momentum by preserving the tension and using specific movement patterns.

When we let it go and release the Jin, all that energy we're using to move the body is evacuated in a single direction

This is drawing a bow, reeling silk, and firing an arrow.

[johnwang]

I'm talking about Taijiquan, not whatever that is.

You uncompress one thing to compress something else. That way you can keep using the same energy to make force and do the work of moving your body. It's like filling a cup with water and pouring it into another and then back. Sure there might be some spillage but you can do that for a long time without needing to add much more, if any.

I don't understand what kind of combat situation that you are talking about. I'm talking about apply Taiji in combat. You either knock your opponent down, or you take your opponent's down.

Taiji has punch such as:

- turn around hammer,
- vital punch,
- snakes extend tone,
- fair lady work on shuttle,
- ...

Taiji has take down such as:

- diagonal fly,
- wide horse raffing main,
- slant body down,
- step back repulse monkey,
- ...

[origami_itto]

Of course it has those movements, but they must be done according to the method I outlined to be considered Taijiquan.

We never want to be fully released, we play with the space between, that's where the strength is. At the "end" of a movement, you should be able to just let the next one happen, but you should also be able to change at any time.

It really is a beautiful and amazing art, but you can only really appreciate it by doing it.

[johnwang]

Of course it has those movements, but they must be done according to the method I outlined to be considered Taijiquan.

You may try to allow the fight to go longer. I just want to knock down my opponent ASAP.

You try to let combat to meet your Taiji requirement. I try to let Taiji to meet my combat requirement. In other words, I try to make Taiji to fit into my "compress and release" model. If Taiji doesn't fit into this model, I'll throw Taiji away. But at least until now, I believe Taiji fits into this model.

[origami_itto]

Of course it has those movements, but they must be done according to the method I outlined to be considered Taijiquan.

You try to let combat to meet your Taiji requirement. I try to let Taiji to meet my combat requirement.

You may try to allow the fight to go longer. I just want to knock down my opponent ASAP.

Well I'm trying to avoid the fight, period, lol.

The idea is to make our energy smooth while the opponent is coarse, so they they cannot keep up with our changes and fall almost as soon as we engage.

Easier said than done, lol.

But the idea is that you never give up everything. Every "strike" sets up the next, you've always got something in the tank to deliver.

Push hands is just playing around, but that's where the skill comes from. Stick-adhere-join-follow

[johnwang]

Well I'm trying to avoid the fight, period, lol.

We all try to avoid fighting. This is why I prefer to talk about tournament fight instead.

But the idea is that you never give up everything. Every "strike" sets up the next, you've always got something in the tank to deliver.

Now you are talking about combo. Here is a 3 moves combo - shin bite, reverse shin bite, foot sweep. I'm pretty sure when he applied the 1st and 2nd move of the combo, he "got something in the tank to deliver".

I'll call this "not fully commit during set up".

[Trick]

The TJQ form is one long flow of a move, no stops and starts here and there, this holds a deeper understanding, a skill ingraining so subtle over time comes along as opponents vanish away. A shield, a guard of kind builds up, one no longer display any openings for others to take advantage of, there will no longer be any opponents.

[twocircles13]

The question isn't when, it's what. What is compressing and releasing? Why not keep it?

Not sure what you mean "keep it". You can't keep your compress forever.

Let's use the "cross" as one example.

Compress - when you punch, your back leg bend first. Your back leg then steps on the ground, borrows the counter force from the ground.
Release - Your back leg is complete straight. The power generated from your back leg, go through your hip, spine, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your fist.

Isn’t that clip from Hsu’s Bajiquan video?

Regardless, @johnwang, your analysis is incomplete. I’ll put what you said in italics and complete it with regular type. For now, ignore the video.

Compress - when you punch, your back hip drops compressing your back leg bends first. Simplified but OK let’s move on. Your back leg then steps on the ground, borrows the counter force from the ground. “Ground reaction force" is the technical name.

Release - Your back leg is complete straight. This is not actually a requirement. The back leg and hip just needs to be a conduit for the force. The power generated from your back leg, go through your hip, spine, causing rotation, most of the power comes from the rotation shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your contralateral (opposite side) fist. To go to the ipsilateral (same side fist), it has to go from the back leg through the hips to the front leg and then through the hips-torso to the shoulder, arm and fist.

Now, we can talk about the video.

Since he is punching with the fist ipsilateral to the back leg, this is exactly what Hsu does. He uses the back leg to spring forward (that’s why it straightens) to load (compress) the front leg. At the same time the torso rotates and the arm extends. This force creates kinetic energy, and upon impact an equal and opposite force will return through Hsu. If Hsu remains ungrounded, the force won’t transfer completely into the opponent. However, Hsu uses the front leg to create a static kinetic chain for the force to transfer through, front leg, torso, extended arm and fist. Upon impact, the returning (equal and opposite) force will go through the fist, arm, torso, compressed front leg creating a ground reaction force transferring it back to the fist, so the opponent receives the full force of the punch.

OK, now that we have a better analysis, what was your point?